No overwhelming historical proof: Why I doubt Jesus

[loverofhumanity]

..... which is why your faith will probably be left far behind, because full emancipation of Gender, Sexual Equality and Consensual Sexual Freedom.will hopefully sweep away the dinosaur religions that cannot review their 'stuck-in-the-mud' laws.

I have witnessed some dreadful results of Bahai Gender, Sexuality and Marriage rules. Not good.
And I have been told that Bahai law and punishment rules have some fairly terrible imports.
............ and you will be able to say, 'All Just!'.

These are our laws and teachings and we don't force people to become Baha'is.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Even happens in the US, which fought a war over it awhile back, so God apparently doesn't care all that much, does He?


We need more input from the Teacher, then. For many people, God comes off as that professor that comes in the first day, tells you to read the syllabus, and then just comes again at the end for the final exam.


Abraham's descendants used genocide to spread their culture. That's hardly peaceful. Even Jacob didn't do much when his sons killed an entire town because they claimed a sister was raped (whether she was or not is unclear, especially since the bible doesn't seem to care about her attitude about it anyway).


Only works if people don't like having bad things done to them. You wouldn't want the Golden Rule to be followed by a masochist, would you?


I have a guess: the male founder didn't want it. Am I close?

We don't know yet do I can't say.

 

[columbus]

Why do you think that Islam addresses the topic of Jesus in the Qur'an? If Jesus didn't exist, why does Islam go through the trouble of dismissing what Christians believe about Jesus? Muslims don't believe that Jesus never existed, just that He wasn't crucified, etc. This isn't a debate type of question, I'm just curious as to your thoughts from a purely historical perspective.

I feel this is a crucial point. I am quite sure that the Historical Jesus existed, even though that was unclear in my OP. And I think Muhammad knew more about Him than the bishops who decided that the Apostles Creed and the Canon were official Christianity.
I'll start a thread about it instead of just a post. OK?
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Did so!




Wobble!

Where did I say "Christian"?

Did so......!


Wobble Wobble!

"X does not speak to Y" means "X does not help to establish Y". If you bothered to read the post beyond the point where you cut it off, you'll see that I mentioned how the early Christian beliefs that Celsus wrote about included beliefs about Jesus.

This by itself isn't evidence of Jesus' existence; it's evidence that people several generations after the fact believed that Jesus existed.

Wobble wobble wobble.....

Use your words.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Quote: from URAVIP2ME


(Since man can't direct his step to establish Peace on Earth, then, to me, God will have Jesus step in to usher in Peace on Earth.)
Well I've read the Bible too and it says that it's God that assures man's step; in other words He/She guides us all to a certain destiny (through the holy spirit and miracles), so the journey may be rough, dangerous, unpredictable and full of lessons, but the 'heavenly end' is in sight for us all, a spiritual person can see this!
sunray

Is a heavenly end in sight for those of Psalms 92:7 ?_______
Is a heavenly end in sight for those of Matthew 12:32? ______
Is a heavenly end in sight for those of Hebrews 6:4-6 ? ______

What is the 'end', so to speak, for those of Matthew 5:5; Proverbs 2:21-22 ?
Didn't Jesus also promise ' Earth ' ? _______
So, the humble figurative 'sheep'-like people of Matthew 25:31-33,37 can inherit the Earth because they are Not dead people.
They will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on Earth for the healing of earth's nations - Revelation 22:2

Yes, God assures man's steps "IF" man will obey God.
Adam was assured of everlasting life on Earth only as long as he did Not break God's Law.
We are given the choice to either ' repent ' or we will ' perish ' ( meaning be destroyed ) -2 Peter 3:9

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Abraham's descendants used genocide to spread their culture. That's hardly peaceful. Even Jacob didn't do much when his sons killed an entire town because they claimed a sister was raped (whether she was or not is unclear, especially since the bible doesn't seem to care about her attitude about it anyway).
Only works if people don't like having bad things done to them. You wouldn't want the Golden Rule to be followed by a masochist, would you?

First, Not all of ancient Israel's wars or battles were ordered by God.
What Jacob's sons did was Not authorized by God.

Sorry I was Not more clear. Matthew 7:12 is in connection to Leviticus 19:17-18.
So, it is Not talking about the damaged conscience of a serial killer or a masochist.- Romans 2:15 B; 1 Timothy 4:2

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The facts state that 93% of wars throughout history were not involving religion.

Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars, which chronicles some 1,763 wars that have been waged over the course of human history. Of those wars, the authors categorize 123 as being religious in nature, which is 6.98% of all wars.

The truth is, non-religious motivations and naturalistic philosophies bear the blame for nearly all of humankind’s wars. Lives lost during religious conflict pales in comparison to those experienced during the regimes who wanted nothing to do with the idea of God – something showcased in

R. J. Rummel’s work Lethal Politics and Death by Government:

Non-Religious Dictator Lives Lost

Joseph Stalin - 42,672,000
Mao Zedong - 37,828,000
Adolf Hitler - 20,946,000
Chiang Kai-shek - 10,214,000
Vladimir Lenin - 4,017,000
Hideki Tojo - 3,990,000
Pol Pot - 2,397,0003

Hiroshima & Nagasaki is not here either so you think humanity is civil without religion? The facts prove otherwise. There's too much history to go into on this forum but so many sciences and arts have been as a result of religion that are documented in Encyclopaedias and history books. Consult them. Universities, schools, hospitals etc and so much more were influenced directly by religion.

I responded to you about these numbers in another thread, and you ignored me there, so I suppose you will again here.

My issue is that when people want to make "religion" look better by comparing its depredations to Stalin and Hitler, as you have, are ignoring what religion and the ideologies represented by all of those figures have in common: they are each -- every single one, including religion -- claimed to have been "revealed" to humanity from a single (or very narrow) source, to contain "absolute truth" in spite of all the evidence available against, and to be required belief in the culture. Communism (Stalin, Mao) was one such -- "revealed" by Karl Marx, and adhered to with absolute religious fanaticism my its dictators.

I do not differentiate between these two types of ideologies: to me, ideology = religion = ideology. They are reflexive. And so long as they are supposed to be "unchallengeable truth," they are all dangerous to humanity.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

First, Not all of ancient Israel's wars or battles were ordered by God.
What Jacob's sons did was Not authorized by God.

So what? That makes God a "nice guy?" Didn't he authorize the murder of all of the Canaanites -- including infants? Oh, pardon me, with the exception of virgin girls who could be held back for purposes of rape. Isn't that the same God? Didn't that God kill (over 7 days, painfully) David and Bathsheba's son, for David's sin? And didn't he keep David on the throne and love him still? Isn't that the same God?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So what? That makes God a "nice guy?" Didn't he authorize the murder of all of the Canaanites -- including infants? Oh, pardon me, with the exception of virgin girls who could be held back for purposes of rape. Isn't that the same God? Didn't that God kill (over 7 days, painfully) David and Bathsheba's son, for David's sin? And didn't he keep David on the throne and love him still? Isn't that the same God?

Didn't David repent ?__________ Psalms 51:10
Besides Bath-sheba's, how may babies are born sick ?
Just as God allows sickness and death today, according to Scripture, there will be a happy-and-healthy physical resurrections.
Jesus will undo all the damage that Satan and Adam brought upon mankind. - Isaiah 25:8; 1 Corinthians 15:26

Where do you read rape at Deuteronomy 21:10-12; Deuteronomy 21:13-15; Deuteronomy 21:16-17 ?
Isn't there a difference between the words rape and wife ?

 

[oldbadger]

Where did I say "Christian"?

"X does not speak to Y" means "X does not help to establish Y". If you bothered to read the post beyond the point where you cut it off, you'll see that I mentioned how the early Christian beliefs that Celsus wrote about included beliefs about Jesus.

This by itself isn't evidence of Jesus' existence; it's evidence that people several generations after the fact believed that Jesus existed.

Use your words.

I love the 'if you bothered to read....'

Now........ just relax, take a deep breath........ another........ It's quite simple....
So, 1. Flavius Josephus DID write about Jesus, because of the POSITION of the entry, rather than the words.
So, 2. Although Celcius never had dinner with Jesus, he also learned about Jesus from separate sources to main stream Christianity because he could mention that the disciples consisted of ten boatmen and two taxation officials (most interesting).

Of course, Flavius Josephus had been the commanding officer of all Galilean forces, and possibly/probably heard accounts of Jesus from Galilean people, Galilean soldiers and so forth.

I am interested in the life and vocation of Yeshua BarYosef, based upon the 'balance of probabilities', and whilst I debate against the existence of Paul's Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, I debate for the amazing person who probably worked along the Capernaum shoreline, and drank with his mates, the boatmen and publicans of the lake. If this might irritate any extreme Atheists who feel the need desperately to stamp out the lot, then that's just tough.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I do not differentiate between these two types of ideologies: to me, ideology = religion = ideology. They are reflexive. And so long as they are supposed to be "unchallengeable truth," they are all dangerous to humanity.

What is dangerous about James 1:27 ?
What is dangerous about Jesus' NEW commandment of John 13:34-35 to have self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus did.
What is dangerous about Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10 ?

True, the United Nations sees a hauntingly dangerous religious climate brewing in today's world.
Such religious ideologies are Not the fault of Jesus' teachings of his ' Sermon on the Mount ' is it ?
Rather, to me, it is the fault of false clergy teaching their own agenda, often divisive political, instead of what Jesus taught.
With backing the U.N. can be strengthened to turn on the world's troublesome religions.
Just as God used the Roman armies in the year 70 to turn on unfaithful Jerusalem, today's political/military can also serve to be God's 'arm of the law' to get rid of unfaithful Christendom and all dangerous religious ideologies within and without of Christendom.

 

[oldbadger]

These are our laws and teachings and we don't force people to become Baha'is.

Sure........
But to step aside from the discussion we were having and use the 'if you don't like it don't join it' dismissive is clearly indicative of the simple fact that you have absolutely no reasonable egalitarian answer to my points about more human emancipation.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Didn't David repent ?__________ Psalms 51:10
Besides Bath-sheba's, how may babies are born sick ?
Just as God allows sickness and death today, according to Scripture, there will be a happy-and-healthy physical resurrections.
Jesus will undo all the damage that Satan and Adam brought upon mankind. - Isaiah 25:8; 1 Corinthians 15:26

Why do you not quote the relevant scriptures regarding how GOD dealt with David's sin? 2 Samuel, 12, remember?

12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

The Bible seems clear enough -- the sickness of the child (and thus its death, is the LORD's doing. And it is deliberate. God took away David's sin -- and killed an innocent child. That's what those versus say in very clear and certain terms. Don't fudge.

Where do you read rape at Deuteronomy 21:10-12; Deuteronomy 21:13-15; Deuteronomy 21:16-17 ?
Isn't there a difference between the words rape and wife ?

What does the phrase "but of the daughters, who have not known men, keep for yourselves" mean to you? Was there any question of "consent" there? And may I remind you of Moses command (received from God) "Do not intermarry with them."

You don't find any confusion here at all? Just lovey-dovey, nicey-nicey God doing good deeds and handing out candies?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What is dangerous about James 1:27 ?
What is dangerous about Jesus' NEW commandment of John 13:34-35 to have self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus did.
What is dangerous about Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10 ?

There are 31,102 verses in the Bible, and you've given me 5 to redeem the whole thing? Talk about selective!

 

[JustWondering]

Today slavery has been abolished by God.

"It is forbidden you to trade in slaves, be they men or women. It is not for him who is himself a servant to buy another of God’s servants, and this hath been prohibited in His Holy Tablet. Thus, by His mercy, hath the commandment been recorded by the Pen of justice. Let no man exalt himself above another." - Baha'u'llah

People are good but we have not been able to stop war and poverty and all our animalistic tendencies from spoiling our world.

We need a strong spiritual education to be able to overcome our baser instincts and establish things like world peace.

Only religion is a force powerful enough to achieve both the transformation of the individual and society. For this age Baha'u'llah has brought teachings and concepts to help us learn to put humanity first not our self interests and to establish a world civilisation.

Slavery still exists in some parts of the world unfortunately. The reality is that where slavery was abolished, it was abolished by men, not any supernatural entity.

Secondly, you blatantly turned a blind eye to the fact that some of your holy books have your god endorsing slavery. You try to white wash it by saying that your faith brings a new age where slavery isn't cool but the fact remains that it WAS cool, according to YOUR GOD as written in YOUR HOLY BOOKS. If your god is good why would he EVER endorse slavery? I'm interested to see what mental gymnastics you are going to perform to bypass reason and common sense to get to your desired conclusion this time. To help you out, I wouldn't claim that your god just set guidelines so that slaves wouldn't be mistreated, seen that argument before, seen it get shredded before.

Third, if we have base animalistic instincts and that is bad, why would your god create us to have these instincts in the first place? It wouldn't make sense for a good god to do that, right?

 

[CG Didymus]

That's irrelevant as citizens were conscripted and ordered to fight these wars. Religion was never involved.

Hmmm? I thought the God of the Hebrews told them to attack and kill everyone in Jericho? I don't know, but when Islam first started didn't God tell them to go fight and conquer their neighboring tribes?

 

[JustWondering]

People are a cause of war and not religion. People have misused religion and also politics mostly to try and justify war but that is not God's fault.

God has always taught good not evil but men have not always followed His Ways.

Men speaking on their invisible god's behalf have taught good and evil.

 

[JustWondering]

Hi Badger.

We believe God is All Good and All Just.

In the Baha'i Faith our laws state that only marriage between a man and a woman is permitted.

Why women cannot serve on the Universal House of Justice will be known in the future but we don't know now.

Homosexuality is against Baha'i law so we can't accommodate it or same sex marriage.

Makes one wonder why your god would create homosexuals in the first place if he hates them so much. Thought YOUR god wanted people to love everybody?

 

[JustWondering]

Because you mention the ' Abrahamic God ' is why I also claim that belief in the God of Abraham leads to peace.
First, God made a promise to father Abraham that ALL families, ALL nations of Earth will be blessed - Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18
To me, just because we do Not yet see Peace on Earth does Not mean peace will Not come.
The passing of time has now allowed for us to be born and to think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
There is an old adage that it is darkest before the dawn.
We are at a dark time in mankind's history when people have a selfish distorted form of love as described at 2 Timothy 3
That selfish behavior is in sharp contrast to the definition of love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6
Isn't it the lack of love that leads to a lack of peace ?______
If everyone on Earth lived by the Golden Rule wouldn't there be Peace on Earth ? ______
Since man can't direct his step to establish Peace on Earth, then, to me, God will have Jesus step in to usher in Peace on Earth.
We are nearing the time when ' they ' ( powers that be ) will be saying " Peace and Safety " but it is only a precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill.
- 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3

That's nice. Why are you quoting passages of mythology to an atheist? Your god doesn't exist. The only ones who can fix the problems we have are people who are here and actually exist in reality. That means we have to fix our own problems and we are responsible for our future. Waiting around on your invisible sky king to make the world into a perfect paradise isn't going to accomplish anything.

 

[JustWondering]

Quote: from URAVIP2ME


(Since man can't direct his step to establish Peace on Earth, then, to me, God will have Jesus step in to usher in Peace on Earth.)
Well I've read the Bible too and it says that it's God that assures man's step; in other words He/She guides us all to a certain destiny (through the holy spirit and miracles), so the journey may be rough, dangerous, unpredictable and full of lessons, but the heavenly end is in sight for us all, a spiritual person can see this!

sunray

More likely just superstitious stories and mythology.