No overwhelming historical proof: Why I doubt Jesus

[StopS]

I don't understand why people care about cast iron evidence for historical Jesus.

And I don't understand how anyone would believe anything without evidence.
If I say, "I can fly", would you believe me without evidence? No, of course not.
So until someone presents compelling evidence for the existence of someone I will suspend belief. Easy.

Given the place and time, it is immanently plausible that such a person existed. In fact, many such people are known to have. The premise that He was entirely fictional is what seems implausible.
Tom

No, it is not. Physics has not changed, neither has biology. Nobody has ever done anything attributed to Jesus in a miraculous or verifiable way. Ever. Turning water into wine is not a miracle, getting 5000 people drunk on a single bottle is.
I maintain that Moses, Jesus and Muhammad are fictitious, made up as figure-heads. Until someone shows me that I am wrong.

 

[columbus]

And I don't understand how anyone would believe anything without evidence.

There is a more nuanced view of this.
I find the likeliest explanation for what we know to be a batch of legends that accumulated around a charismatic figure from the 1st century. I don't believe in the less plausible miracles, but I don't doubt He healed people (or at least was credited with their improvement) .
I don't much doubt that Jesus existed and meant a great deal to some people. Enough that He started accumulating less plausible legends in short order.
Tom

 

[StopS]

You don't read all the posts.

Correct. Again. Will you repeat this over an over?

And your analysis is pathetic......

That is entirely possible. Prove it and I will learn from what you write.

The entuire paragraph is fake. OK?

Oh boy! Yes, like I have now stated I don't know how many times, yes, the paragraph known as TF is totally fake.

So let's make a guess that some avid Christians wrote trhat paragraph, yes?

I don't guess or speculate. So the answer is: I don't know.

Moving forward.......

No, don't kid yourself, you are not. You are standing still and telling yourself something. It's known as delusion.

So then, they 'snuck' it into the writings of FJ, OK? Yes?

Again: I don't know. Your entire approach seems childish. Are you sure you know what you are doing here?

Duh!
So, agreeing that they wrote that para, why did they put it there?

We have not agreed on anything here. What is wrong with you? You make unfounded assertions, agree with yourself and pretend others do too. I have news for you: they don't.

They could have moved to HJ's more depthy account of JohntheBaptist, reduced that down so that it didn't overshadow their entry and then placed it just after JtB's account. Would that have been better?

Who cares? Who is HJ?

You're just a rubbish investigator, maybe?

Maybe. But you have presented nothing to demonstrate that.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So who or what started and condoned it?

Slavery was as a result of the human race's immaturity. As we grow and become more mature we can see the evil of these things.

 

[StopS]

There is a more nuanced view of this.
I find the likeliest explanation for what we know to be a batch of legends that accumulated around a charismatic figure from the 1st century. I don't believe in the less plausible miracles, but I don't doubt He healed people (or at least was credited with their improvement) .
I don't much doubt that Jesus existed and meant a great deal to some people. Enough that He started accumulating less plausible legends in short order.
Tom

Deal.
My statement is actually: the probability that the Jesus as described in the New Testament and the Koran physically existed is extremely low, given that there is no compelling evidence.

 

[StopS]

Slavery was as a result of the human race's immaturity. As we grow and become more mature we can see the evil of these things.

Exactly, so if a god stopped it, which god started and allowed it?

 

[loverofhumanity]

That is what a mafia boss would say, too.

Ciao

- viole

Those Words come from God and are for the benefit of all humanity.

These words also...

Beware! Beware! Lest ye offend any heart!
Beware! Beware! Lest ye hurt any soul!
Beware! Beware! Lest ye deal unkindly toward any person!
Beware! Beware! Lest ye be the cause of hopelessness to any creature!

Should one become the cause of grief to any one heart, or of despondency to any one soul, it were better to hide oneself in the lowest depths of the ear

 

[columbus]

Deal.
My statement is actually: the probability that the Jesus as described in the New Testament and the Koran physically existed is extremely low, given that there is no compelling evidence.

You know what I think really happened?
Jesus was a recruiter for a violent antiRoman group. Paul, who regularly persecuted people like that, had a fever dream or something and suddenly developed an interest in Jesus. The Apostles were not going to tell him the truth because it was a capital crime. They could be crucified too. So they gave Paul a garbled version of the "nice" parts and Paul went and started a religion based on that.
Tom

 

[oldbadger]

Correct. Again. Will you repeat this over an over?


That is entirely possible. Prove it and I will learn from what you write.


Oh boy! Yes, like I have now stated I don't know how many times, yes, the paragraph known as TF is totally fake.


I don't guess or speculate. So the answer is: I don't know.


No, don't kid yourself, you are not. You are standing still and telling yourself something. It's known as delusion.


Again: I don't know. Your entire approach seems childish. Are you sure you know what you are doing here?

We have not agreed on anything here. What is wrong with you? You make unfounded assertions, agree with yourself and pretend others do too. I have news for you: they don't.

Who cares? Who is HJ?

Maybe. But you have presented nothing to demonstrate that.

Ha ha!
You just cannot admit that you missed that angle completely!
I love it.
Hj was a typo. Try fj for f.josephus.
He did write about Jesus, but others added or rewrote.
QED

 

[oldbadger]

You know what I think really happened?
Jesus was a recruiter for a violent antiRoman group. Paul, who regularly persecuted people like that, had a fever dream or something and suddenly developed an interest in Jesus. The Apostles were not going to tell him the truth because it was a capital crime. They could be crucified too. So they gave Paul a garbled version of the "nice" parts and Paul went and started a religion based on that.
Tom

That is not a bad suggestion.
I think Jesus was recruiting against the upper class, the priesthood, because there were no Romans in Galilee. It was the Sanhedrin which sent the Jew Paul against the survivors.
What I cannot figure out is why he broke his contract with them and went Christian?

 

[columbus]

ink Jesus was recruiting against the upper class, the priesthood, because there were no Romans in Galilee.

Of course there were. Romans and their agents were everywhere. But the Jewish aristocracy were just as bad, maybe worse. So people like Jesus hated them just as much.

Reread the NT, and substitute "sovereign Judea" (Judea without the Roman and Greek pagans or their rich lackeys) for "Kingdom of God/Heaven " and the whole story makes a lot more sense.
Tom

 

[oldbadger]

Of course there were. Romans and their agents were everywhere. But the Jewish aristocracy were just as bad, maybe worse. So people like Jesus hated them just as much.

Reread the NT, and substitute "sovereign Judea" (Judea without the Roman and Greek pagans or their rich lackeys) for "Kingdom of God/Heaven " and the whole story makes a lot more sense.
Tom

Honestly........ there were no Romans in Galilee, Perea, or the Northern Provinces.
There were only Roman troops stationed in Judea, Idumea and Samaria.
Pilate only had autrhority in Judua, Idumea and Samaria.
Herod Philip controlled the Northern Provinces with his own forces.
Herod Antipas controlled Perea and Galilee with his own forces.
It was Antipas's forces (for example) which came and arrested ohn the Baptist and took to Machaerus (spelling?) in Perea. It was Herod Antipas who decided to execute JtB.

There were no Romans in Galilee.

Jesus was severely p----d off with the upper-class Jews in Galilee who had lost interest in the old ways, rules and laws layed down in the OT and had become Hellenised, copying the fashions, cultures and even religions of the Romans and Greeks. The peasant classes were being badly let down by the upper class. There was no middle class.

See what John the Baptist said about the upper class (the priesthood). He felt the same way.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Exactly, so if a god stopped it, which god started and allowed it?

No God started it. We started it. God sends Teachers to educate us about what is right and wrong. But we take time to learn. It is a process - growing up- it doesn't happen overnight.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Hmmm? I thought the God of the Hebrews told them to attack and kill everyone in Jericho? I don't know, but when Islam first started didn't God tell them to go fight and conquer their neighboring tribes?

Did you forget about Rahab and family living in Jericho were Not attacked and killed ?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And I don't understand how anyone would believe anything without evidence.
If I say, "I can fly", would you believe me without evidence? No, of course not.
So until someone presents compelling evidence for the existence of someone I will suspend belief. Easy.
No, it is not. Physics has not changed, neither has biology. Nobody has ever done anything attributed to Jesus in a miraculous or verifiable way. Ever. Turning water into wine is not a miracle, getting 5000 people drunk on a single bottle is.
I maintain that Moses, Jesus and Muhammad are fictitious, made up as figure-heads. Until someone shows me that I am wrong.

Seeing someone fly is: physical/material evidence.
The Bible is about: spiritual evidence.
To me, that spiritual evidence is made evident by the international proclaiming about God's kingdom government being spread world wide.
No human undertaking could accomplish that global spiritual work by just human efforts.
It is just as Jesus' recorded words state about God's kingdom at Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8
Even modern technology has made rapid Bible translation possible so people even in remote areas of Earth can have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages.

We are in the last days of badness on Earth as described by the selfish distorted form of love many people display at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13
Which is in sharp contrast to the definition of godly love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6; John 13:34-35
So, if you look merely for material/physical evidence you will Not find it, but we can find the words of Scripture being fulfilled.
To me, we are nearing the ' final phase ' of Matthew 24:14 before the ' final signal ', so to speak, of 1 Thessalsonians 5:2-3 when ' they ' ( the powers that be ) will be saying," Peace and Security " as a precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill.

 

[columbus]

Honestly........ there were no Romans in Galilee, Perea, or the Northern Provinces.

How were the Romans kept out?

I don't think that they were. I think that the Romans did pretty much anything that they wanted to.
Tom

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That's nice. Why are you quoting passages of mythology to an atheist? Your god doesn't exist. The only ones who can fix the problems we have are people who are here and actually exist in reality. That means we have to fix our own problems and we are responsible for our future. Waiting around on your invisible sky king to make the world into a perfect paradise isn't going to accomplish anything.

Yes, I can agree that 'people who really exist in reality can fix the problems', but I am adding with God's backing and guidance.
Why quote or mention passages is because I have No partiality against any atheist. Some I have found more reasonable to talk with.
The 'people who really exist' are to cultivate the fruit of God's spirit as listed at Galatians 5:22-23.
If everyone on Earth kept Jesus' NEW commandment to have self-sacrificing love for others - John 13:34-35 - wouldn't we see a fix to our own problems ? _______
Mankind's history has shown man can Not direct his step, that is why we need God to step in, and according to Scripture He will.
'Step in' by getting rid of those who bring ruin to earth and will Not change their ruinous behavior - Revelation 11:18 B; Psalms 92:7
Then, only 'people who are here and actually exist in reality' will be the humble meek who will inherit the Earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Makes one wonder why your god would create homosexuals in the first place if he hates them so much. Thought YOUR god wanted people to love everybody?

Where does it say God hates homosexuals, rather Scripture teaches God hates fornication ( porneia )
So, it is 'homosexual acts' that fall under the category of fornication ( porneia )
We all can have wrong leanings but that does Not mean we have to act upon them.
So, anyone single is to avoid fornication ( porneia )

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Men speaking on their invisible god's behalf have taught good and evil.

Yes, men speaking on God's behalf have taught both good and evil.
That does Not make the Bible as wrong, but makes the wrong teachers as wrong.
False shepherds (clergy) teach the evil so as to fleece the flock of God - Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30
Jesus' recorded words forewarn us that MANY would come ' in his name ' but prove false - Matthew 7:21-23
So, we should Not be surprised that there are men speaking falsely on God's behalf.
They often teach church traditions, or church customs, as being Scripture when Not found in Scripture.

 

[JustWondering]

Yes, I can agree that 'people who really exist in reality can fix the problems', but I am adding with God's backing and guidance.
Why quote or mention passages is because I have No partiality against any atheist. Some I have found more reasonable to talk with.
The 'people who really exist' are to cultivate the fruit of God's spirit as listed at Galatians 5:22-23.
If everyone on Earth kept Jesus' NEW commandment to have self-sacrificing love for others - John 13:34-35 - wouldn't we see a fix to our own problems ? _______
Mankind's history has shown man can Not direct his step, that is why we need God to step in, and according to Scripture He will.
'Step in' by getting rid of those who bring ruin to earth and will Not change their ruinous behavior - Revelation 11:18 B; Psalms 92:7
Then, only 'people who are here and actually exist in reality' will be the humble meek who will inherit the Earth.

The problem with religions like yours is that its standards for conduct and behavior are unrealistic and often times ignore/go against human nature. Your bible says homosexuality is bad, but why would it exist at all if your god doesn't like it? Sex itself in your religion is often demonized. If god didn't want us to have sex just because it was fun why didn't he give us a different reproduction system to avoid that issue altogether? From a purely logical standpoint, if your god were real, all of our issues are the fault of his incompetence/unreasonableness. He creates us with the capacity to get angry but gets angry himself at us if we indulge our anger. Logically I find the existence of your biblical god very unlikely. If it does exist, it is the biggest hypocrite in creation.