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Noah's Ark

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Most nations have similar stories, which may have been orally transmitted since the melting of the ice age.

None of the stories from different ancient cultures actually related to the melting at the end of the Ice Age, though there were many local catastrophic floods during the Ice Age and related to the end of Ice Age.

Other ancient texts DO NOT document a catastrophic world flood. they all refers to local flooding of river, tsunamis and earthquakes. China and Japan have the best detailed description of ancient floods. The flood of the Sumerian myth is specifically dated geologically to a Tyris Euphrates river flood 2900 to 2800 BCE.

The thread began and devolved into trivial discussions of bear color neglecting the facts there is not only absolutely no evidence for such a flood, the flood is impossible, and the description of the Arc as a sea worthy ship is even impossible to build reflecting in the failures of the attempts to build such a monster today.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Let me guess, your "proof" comes from a liberal source that denies God even exists.
Sarcasm?!?! or intentional ignorance?!?!?, There is no such thing as proof involved here. In science there are no academic sources that determine whether God exists or not. Please cite any scientific source that reflects your accusation,

There is no evidence such a flood ever happened, and It is simply impossible for a catastrophic flood to ever happen and the description of the Ark is impossible to physically build a sea worthy crafteven today as described in the Pentateuch.
 

soulsurvivor

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is simply not true. Other ancient texts DO NOT document a catastrophic world flood. they all refers to local flooding of river, tsunamis and earthquakes.

The thread began and devolved into trivial discussions of bear color neglecting the facts there is not only absolutely no evidence for such a flood, the flood is impossible, and the description of the Arc as a seaworthy ship is even impossible reflecting in the failures of the attempts to build such a monster today.
"The Shatapatha Brahmana recounts how Manu was warned by a fish, to whom he had done a kindness, that a flood would destroy the whole of humanity. He therefore built a boat, as the fish advised. When the flood came, he tied this boat to the fish's horn and was safely steered to a resting place on a mountaintop."
- Nothing 'local' about this myth from Manu | Hinduism, Vedas, Flood Myth
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
"The Shatapatha Brahmana recounts how Manu was warned by a fish, to whom he had done a kindness, that a flood would destroy the whole of humanity. He therefore built a boat, as the fish advised. When the flood came, he tied this boat to the fish's horn and was safely steered to a resting place on a mountaintop."
- Nothing 'local' about this myth from Manu | Hinduism, Vedas, Flood Myth
Read carefully the myth you are citing. Warned by a fish?!!?!?to whom he had done a kindness and think this over.

The myths are not factual records, and can be dated to river flooding such as the Indus river floods. The writings of the Sumerian catastrophic flood have been specifically dated to geologic deposits of a the river flood. The floods recorded in China and Japan are specifically dated to river floods, tidal waves and earth quakes,

Even though ancient people may consider it a world flood from their perspective of a local flood, It remains there is absolutely no physical evidence of such an impossible world flood,
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I think in part that field trips are more virtual now.

When I was in school we actually went to a dig site and saw things for ourselves as the teachers there explained and showed things.
The required summer Field Geology course was the best. We had to go out in the field for six weeks. Minnesota is too flat and dull. So our class was a six week long field trip to Colorado. Our base camp was at 8,000 feet of elevation and that was where we lived for five days out of the week, The weekends were spent in college dormitory. And it was the only class that I have ever taken where we had a daily beer ration. That is a key part of being a geologist!

Also as I said, our base was at 8,000 feet, By the end we would often go up from their quite a bit over a day. Hiking up to the ten thousand foot level was quite common. and eleven and even twelve happened at least once.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I'm glad that's not the only scientific method since a worldwide flood couldn't really be tested with an experiment.

Let me get serious here. I know you're a geology professor and have a respectable knowledge base when it comes to the subject. But I hope you realize that much of science is still based on theories that have been around for so long that scientists eventually decide to treat those theories as facts since they have been accepted for so long. However, being accepted doesn't mean true.
Disproven means not true.

Whatever "evidences" you can cite, one
fact contrary to flood theory disproves it.

Polar ice deeply predates any poissible flood timeline.

Does that need explaining?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes, that is why they are called myths. But the myths do talk about a global catastrophe.
Only some from a local perspective of a primative people, Most do not as in China, Japan and the Native Americans on the Pacific coast These records are far more specific to local floods.even those of the primitive peoples and the other floods they are not dated by the evidence to the same time.
 

soulsurvivor

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Only some from a local perspective of a primative people, Most do not as in China, Japan and the Native Americans on the Pacific coast These records are far more specific to local floods.even those of the primitive peoples and the other floods they are not dated by the evidence to the same time.
Are you suggesting that ancient Hindus and Hebrews were somehow more primitive than ancient Chinese, Japanese etc?

How primitive are these scientists who speculate about large scale sea rise: Meltwater pulse 1B - Wikipedia
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Are you suggesting that ancient Hindus and Hebrews were somehow more primitive than ancient Chinese, Japanese etc?

How primitive are these scientists to who speculate about large scale sea rise: Meltwater pulse 1B - Wikipedia
Actually yes at the time. The Chinese and Japanese were meticulous in describing the physical events such as floods. Also Native Americans kept oral histories as natural events when they did not have a written language,they were handed down orally and accurately as natural events.


A paper published this week in Science finds evidence to support stories that a huge flood took place in China about 4,000 years ago, during the reign of Emperor Yu. The study, led by Chinese researcher Qinglong Wu, finds evidence for a massive landslide dam break that could have redirected the course of the Yellow River, giving rise to the legendary flood that Emperor Yu is credited with controlling.

An accompanying commentary by David Montgomery, a UW professor of Earth and space sciences, discusses how this finding supports the historical basis for traditional tales about China’s Great Flood. It even explains some details of the classic folk story.

“A telling aspect of the story — that it took Yu and his followers decades to control the floodwaters — makes sense in light of geological evidence that Wu et al. present,” Montgomery writes.

The study showed that an ancient landslide dammed the Yellow River on the edge of the Tibetan Plateau. When the dam broke in about 1922 B.C., the authors found, it created an enormous flood that coincided with a period of major social disruption, suggesting that the Yellow River overflowed its banks and had to set a new course.

“It would have taken considerable time for a large river to adjust to such a change and the associated sustained flooding would fall in the right time and place to account for Yu’s story — including the long time it took to control the floodwaters,” Montgomery commented.

UW geologist David Montgomery is the author of a 2013 book that looks for the geological basis for Noah’s flood and other traditional stories.
The discovery is the latest in a series of efforts to link geologic and oral histories, including the biblical tale of Noah’s flood.

“Great floods figure prominently in some of humanity’s oldest stories,” Montgomery said. “In researching my book, ‘The Rocks Don’t Lie,’ I found that while the idea of a global flood was soundly refuted almost 200 years ago, many of the world’s flood stories have their roots in real catastrophic events — like tsunamis, glacial dam-break floods and disastrous flooding of lowland valleys and areas along major rivers.”

The Pacific Northwest is home to one prominent example. Montgomery notes UW research that has linked Native American tales about shaking and flooding to the 1700 earthquake and tsunami along Washington’s coast, for which no written records exist.

Please note as referenced before the Native Americans accurately described and documented natural Tidal Waves and Earthquakes n their history as oral traditions.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I'm glad that's not the only scientific method since a worldwide flood couldn't really be tested with an experiment.
Catastrophic floods can be verified in the recent geologic record over the past hundreds of thousands of years.. The evidence is the physical deposition of flood debris. There are historical and geologic evidence of floods. The largest catastro[hic floodsareassocoated with the Ice Age and the end over 10,000 years ago no human record of this time. In recent geologic history within 10,000 years we have a lot of geologic and historcal evidence for local catastrophic floods

I know you're a geology professor and have a respectable knowledge base when it comes to the subject. But I hope you realize that much of science is still based on theories that have been around for so long that scientists eventually decide to treat those theories as facts since they have been accepted for so long. However, being accepted doesn't mean true.

The geologic and historical evidence in these case is not based on theories. It is based on actual physical geologic evidence and historical records.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I'm glad that's not the only scientific method since a worldwide flood couldn't really be tested with an experiment.

Let me get serious here. I know you're a geology professor and have a respectable knowledge base when it comes to the subject. But I hope you realize that much of science is still based on theories that have been around for so long that scientists eventually decide to treat those theories as facts since they have been accepted for so long. However, being accepted doesn't mean true.
The following reference is the most comprehensive I have found concerning the literary, historic and geologic evidence and the relationship of the Sumerian flood and the Noah's Ark flood myth with extensive references.


The Flood: Mesopotamian Archaeological Evidence

The assertion of some historians and archaeologists that a great flood devastated a region of Mesopotamia at the dawn of history and that this event was the origin of the biblical Flood story has become a curious backwater in the debate over creationism. The topic has not proved of major concern to either the advocates of recent-creationism or to their scientific opponents. It has, however, given considerable, if probably unwarranted, encouragement to day-age creationists, gap theorists, and those who hope to reconcile apparent contradictions between scripture and science.

Within a few months of one another during the 1928-1929 excavation season, archaeologists at two southern Mesopotamian sites, Ur and Kish, announced the discovery of flood deposits which they identified with the Flood described in the Hebrew scriptures and cuneiform sources. The famous and glamorous Sir Charles Leonard Woolley, after his deep excavations of the Early Dynastic royal tombs at Ur, had a small test shaft sunk into the underlying soil. He persisted through some eight feet of bare mud before finally coming to a layer bearing artifacts of late prehistoric date. It did not take Woolley long to arrive at an interpretation:
I . . . by the time I had written up my notes was quite convinced of what it all meant; but I wanted to see whether others would come to the same conclusion. So I brought up two of my staff and, after pointing out the facts, asked for their explanation. They did not know what to say. My wife came along and looked and was asked the same question, and she turned away remarking casually, "Well, of course, it's the Flood."
[1954, p. 27]​

- page 15 -

Woolley's first test pit was very small, so during that and the next season he had dug a number of other test shafts, including an enormous pit, seventy-five feet by sixty feet and sixty-four feet deep. In this main pit, he encountered a deposit of clean, apparently water-laid soil up to eleven feet thick. Evidence of the Flood was absent from several shafts and uncertain or disturbed in a number of others. But in many, Woolley felt he had certain evidence of the Flood (1955).

Just slightly before Woolley's initial discovery, S. Langdon and L. Watelin encountered smaller flood levels at Kish (Watelin, 1934). Although the Kish discovery actually predated Woolley's find at Ur, Woolley published first (Woolley, 1929) and received the lion's share of the initial publicity. Woolley, moreover, produced a highly successful popularization of his work in which the Flood finds were recounted in a manner that is at once simple, authoritative, and filled with references to familiar biblical materials (Woolley, 1929, 1954, 1982). The finds from Ur achieved and maintain a predominant place in the public mind.

Initially, some assumed with great eagerness that the flood levels at Ur and Kish were identical and provided marvelous evidence for a historical kernel of the Genesis Flood story (Peake, 1930), but the enthusiasm could not be maintained. The level of the great flood at Ur was sandwiched between remains of the Al Ubaid cultural phase, the last purely prehistoric period of southern Mesopotamia, and a layer of debris from the early Protoliterate period. The great Ur flood, thus, can be dated with a high degree of certainty to about 3500 BCE. Kish, however, produced evidence of two floods at the end of the Early Dynastic I and beginning of the Early Dynastic II periods, around 3000 to 2900 BCE, and a still more impressive flood dating to the Early Dynastic III period, around 2600 BCE. All three of the Kish floods were much later than the great flood at Ur. Watelin argued that the earliest of these three was the deluge of the Bible and cuneiform literature.

Within a few years, excavations of a third Mesopotamian site, Shuruppak, also uncovered a flood stratum (Schmidt, 1931). It is of particular interest because, according to the Mesopotamian legend, Shuruppak was the home of Ziusudra, the Sumerian Noah. (The Sumerian Ziusudra means "life of long days." The Akkadian equivalent, Utnapishtim, is "he found life," while the alternative Atra-hasis means "exceedingly wise.") This flood level separated late Protoliterate and Early Dynastic I remains and dates from around 2950 to 2850 BCE. Perhaps, but not certainly, the Shuruppak flood may be equated with the earliest flood at Kish. No other Mesopotamian sites have produced flood remains of significance (Mallowan, 1964).

Read on . . .
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
Only some from a local perspective of a primative people, Most do not as in China, Japan and the Native Americans on the Pacific coast These records are far more specific to local floods.even those of the primitive peoples and the other floods they are not dated by the evidence to the same time.
Many primitive eople were only familiar with 20-30 square miles. That was their universe. When it flooded of course they saw it as the "world". Modern creationists seem to think these ancient people used their cell phones and checked global maps to witness the massive flooding.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Many primitive eople were only familiar with 20-30 square miles. That was their universe. When it flooded of course they saw it as the "world". Modern creationists seem to think these ancient people used their cell phones and checked global maps to witness the massive flooding.

"Modern creationists seem to think these ancient people used their cell phones and checked global maps to witness the massive flooding"

No. That is your thinking and exaggerated BS.
Sadly sometimes it seems to be all you post and or can produce.

If you want an example.. Here's one.

I've seen you many times poke fun at people that pray, tell them its a waste of time, even call them uneducated or stupid but yet turn around and post this..

Right, as prayer can help coping with trauma, and aid in a more positive attitude that is tied to better medical outcomes.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
"Modern creationists seem to think these ancient people used their cell phones and checked global maps to witness the massive flooding"

No. That is your thinking and exaggerated BS.
Sadly sometimes it seems to be all you post and or can produce.

If you want an example.. Here's one.

I've seen you many times poke fun at people that pray, tell them its a waste of time, even call them uneducated or stupid but yet turn around and post this..
Yes, this is unnecessary sarcastic static that detracts form the substance of the thread.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
"Modern creationists seem to think these ancient people used their cell phones and checked global maps to witness the massive flooding"

No. That is your thinking and exaggerated BS.
Sadly sometimes it seems to be all you post and or can produce.

If you want an example.. Here's one.

I've seen you many times poke fun at people that pray, tell them its a waste of time, even call them uneducated or stupid but yet turn around and post this..
To pray for the sake of resolving stress and trauma is sound coping method. This has nothing to do with ancient myths like Noah's Ark.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Many primitive eople were only familiar with 20-30 square miles. That was their universe. When it flooded of course they saw it as the "world". Modern creationists seem to think these ancient people used their cell phones and checked global maps to witness the massive flooding.
A little misleading concerning ancient Neolithic cultures. These cultures had intercontinental trade. The Celts had trade in Austrian Jade and Salt from the British Isles through Austria to the Western regions of China. By the early Bronze Age they found settlements in Western China of Red haired Celts wearing plades.

Actually mythology became a problem when writing fixed the myths in religious beliefs into writing in the Bronze/Iron Age.
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
A little misleading concerning ancient Neolithic cultures. These cultures had intercontinental trade. The Celts had trade in Jade and Salt from the British Isles through Austria to the Western regions of China.

Actually mythology became a problem when writing fixed the myths in religious beliefs into writing in the Bronze/Iron Age.
Right. The trade along major bodies of water and safe land routes was quite extensive.

I was referring to the average citizen, not those select few who risked traveling long distances for commerce. I'm curious about how myths were spread through the trade routes, and mixed with others.
 
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