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Non-Americans with universal healthcare. Do you prefer your system or privatized like the U.S. Why?

Erebus

Well-Known Member
In the UK the general consensus seems to be that a shift to the USA's healthcare is a terrifying prospect. I regularly see it used as an example of a worst case scenario whenever privatisation of the NHS comes up in conversation.

From a more personal point of view, I have a long term health condition that requires daily medication. In my opinion, it's reprehensible to view somebody's illness as a source of revenue.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Many in the U.S. argue against universal healthcare and how terrible it is, yet I never heard anyone from outside the states voice their disdain for it nor how they held an envious desire for U.S. style healthcare. Someone claimed that this was because you're too oppressed to know better. So what's the case?

I don't have a problem with either, however I don't think our government is willing to regulate health care to the point we could afford a universal health care system.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately we're also easily duped into voting against our own interests.
Everyone is, but it feels like Americans are jealous if someone else has something good for "free" so they'd rather lose out on something themselves if someone else got something more. Just what it looks like from the outside. Of course it's usually that terrible guy Marx that's to blame... even if he had nothing to do with it.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
I don't have a problem with either, however I don't think our government is willing to regulate health care to the point we could afford a universal health care system.
Your government is already paying as much for the healthcare system you have per capita as places like Sweden do where it's a working system.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Your government is already paying as much for the healthcare system you have per capita as places like Sweden do where it's a working system.

You mean for medicare? For folks over 65?
Me and my employer are paying for my medical insurance. Government doesn't pay anything for me.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
The total cost of healthcare per patient for government healthcare in the UK and other countries, is less than the total amount USA is spending on Medicare and Medical divided by the total number of Americans, but only a smaller percent of them are getting that coverage, If America had a government healthcare that worked like the UK, everyone would be covered and the government would be paying less than they pay now to cover only a fraction of the people. Of course for this to happen, healthcare professionals would have to be payed a lot less like they are in the UK and procedures would have to cost much less, and insurance companies as we know them would exist only for people that payed extra for private health care.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Private can also be worse quality in dental... lots of them seem to try to get you into more expensive operations just to make more money (surprising, right? they're doing it for profit) which can lead to unnecessary operations.
When I was younger, before my wisdom teeth came in, one dentist I saw wanted to fill some "cavities," which were actually just gaps between my teeth (and not cavities), and the second opinion I got said that with those gaps I should have enough room for my wisdom teeth to come in without having to get them pulled but getting those gaps filled would mean no room for them which means they would have to come out. Glad I went with the second opinion because I had no problems with cavities (that wouldn't happen until after I turned 18 and would often go years in between a visit to the dentist) and I still have my wisdom teeth.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Many in the U.S. argue against universal healthcare and how terrible it is, yet I never heard anyone from outside the states voice their disdain for it nor how they held an envious desire for U.S. style healthcare. Someone claimed that this was because you're too oppressed to know better. So what's the case?
An absolute 'no brainer' the UK's NHS (with all its faults) is brilliant and is the centre of the ethos for the nations health.
No one in the UK has to worry about a financial burden of you or your family becoming ill.
The US is being ruled by the mega rich (who can easily afford healthcare) to the detriment of the middle class and poor who can't...unless they get it with their job. Then what happens if they lose their job?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
A story, true and relevant.

A friend, keen sportsman began being less sporty because his back started hurting. Within a month he had trouble walking. The doctor sent him to a specialist who declared an emergency, within 3 days my friend had a titanium scaffold built and fitted around his spine. The specialist said that waiting another week and he would never walk again.

My friend had a 17 hour operation involving a specialist team over 70 strong, spent 10 days in intensive care, another 2 weeks on a normal ward before being transferred to a residential recuperation home for 3 months.

He cannot run, play tennis or cycle anymore but does walk and swim, a far better life than being in a wheelchair.

Why is it relevant?

My friend is American, lived there for close on 40 years before moving to the UK for 12 years and then retiring in france.

He tells me that in america he would have been wheelchair bound and degenerated to death within a few months because no way could he afford the almost 1/3 million dollars for his op, treatments and aftercare.

In the UK he would be in a wheelchair but alive because the waiting list for an op would mean his spine had collapsed beyond the point that a scaffold would be any use to his mobility

In france, not perfect but job done.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
As crappy as our public health care is in terms of facilities and time spent, I don’t like the idea of paying every time I have a random injury or indeed just how predatory America’s system seems to be. Which is a shame since their medical facilities are among the best in the world, provided you have the dosh of course.

The only real issue I have with universal is rare diseases can be expensive, the waiting lists are pretty bad (unless you go private) and staff are often overworked and pressed for time.
That said, I’m horrified by stories of loved ones in America who seem used to forking out 100 bucks or what have you just to visit the ER for a medical emergency. Or were charged thousands of dollars, just because one fell ill.

I’ve done a couple of visits in the ER in my life, because life happens. Walked out with my bank account intact, no financial burdens simple because it was all bulk billed. Had a burst eye vessel, a few months ago, went to my normally pretty expensive optometrist, immediately got checked to make sure it wasn’t serious. Again bank account wasn’t touched because it’s under bulk billing. Now if only our dentists were under Medicare. I chipped a tooth last year. My options were get a quality if temporary crown for a couple hundred. Or go public and have a crown done that looks like it was fitted by a drunk homeless person lol.
 
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lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Many in the U.S. argue against universal healthcare and how terrible it is, yet I never heard anyone from outside the states voice their disdain for it nor how they held an envious desire for U.S. style healthcare. Someone claimed that this was because you're too oppressed to know better. So what's the case?

I wouldn't trade health cares systems with y'all in a pink fit.
Ours is cheaper and better.

It has real issues but (and I say this soberly) your system appears a low bar to clear in terms of cost and service levels.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
In my opinion, it's reprehensible to view somebody's illness as a source of revenue.

I don't like that reality either. Still there are pros and cons associated with universal and private healthcare. Mainly in terms of quality and expediency.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
In May 2017 my life partner was hit by Guillaine-Barre Syndrome, and not only that, but a particularly nasty variant called Acute Motor Axonal Neuropathy (AMAN). For 8 1/2 months in acute care and long term care hospitals, including 11 days of ICU, he had a lot of procedures, an enormous amount of physiotherapy, untold amounts of expensive drugs (including intravenous immunoglobulin), plasmapheresis (PLEX), surgery to implant a feeding tube through the stomach wall (PEGG) and much more. After all those months, when he came home, help arrived 7 days a week to help him get up, get dressed, take care of needs he couldn't manage for himself for another 11 months.

As you might imagine, all this cost well over a million dollars, which we assuredly did not have, but we paid...not a penny!

For the record, no person from any government sat on any committee deciding on the care he was given...only the doctors and professionals in the hospitals he was in.

Would I change my system? Not for worlds!
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I love my healthcare system. I know literally no-one in this country who wants it privatised. No-one. We trust them better if they are not making a profit from what they are doing. You pay them whether they have seen no patients or twenty patients and there's no incentive to push products and treatments on people, have them pay more and so forth. I recently was given a clean bill of health from my dentist (yesterday); were there not the NHS, I could not have even gone.

I probably like Japan's healthcare system the most, because the emphasis is on prevention. (They can order all tests just for well-being checks, they don't need a suspicion of something being wrong -- something completely different from the rest of the world.) Also, the costs are controlled by the government and ultimately most citizens will never pay more than 30% of the total fees, which reduce with age to 10%. Poor people pay nothing at all under the system, you also still have private insurance options to cover that 30%.

The biggest problem in the USA is we have no cost limits, and in Japan that's what makes their system work really well. You're paying 30%, but you're paying 30% of a fixed cafeteria price, not some insanely jacked up random fee. That means, in most cases you're never paying more than a couple hundred dollars in yen for anything. To me, that's a lot better than universal healthcare -- because that's the biggest problem. Universal healthcare without the cost controls is useless, but I like the ability to have the private insurance option. I _really_ like the ability to order diagnostic tests before you even have trouble.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
The total cost of healthcare per patient for government healthcare in the UK and other countries, is less than the total amount USA is spending on Medicare and Medical divided by the total number of Americans, but only a smaller percent of them are getting that coverage, If America had a government healthcare that worked like the UK, everyone would be covered and the government would be paying less than they pay now to cover only a fraction of the people. Of course for this to happen, healthcare professionals would have to be payed a lot less like they are in the UK and procedures would have to cost much less, and insurance companies as we know them would exist only for people that payed extra for private health care.

I think that is the big problem. The medical business is big business. People working in the medical industry don't want to lose their cash cow.

It means the government would have to step in to regulate, IMO. Something they don't seem willing to do.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, I think if we truly want a free-market healthcare system, then we should go all the way. No more government regulations either. No more prescriptions or controlled substances - everything should be available over the counter.

And if someone wants to have a sideline business doing brain surgery in their basement, well...caveat emptor.

"We don't need no stinkin' license to practice medicine!"

Of course, I'm being sarcastic here, but then again, if it gets to the point where more and more people just can't afford it anymore, they might seek out lower-cost alternatives or underground solutions.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Many in the U.S. argue against universal healthcare and how terrible it is, yet I never heard anyone from outside the states voice their disdain for it nor how they held an envious desire for U.S. style healthcare. Someone claimed that this was because you're too oppressed to know better. So what's the case?
I have read some comments here, and there seems to be some false assumptions being made.

Is healthcare a ¨right¨ ? The US Constitution which enumerates the rights of Americans does not say so. It is a philosophical question.

I read the word free many times in regard to socialized medicine.

Nothing is free. Someone always has to pay for it. This cost is reflected in higher taxes and other money redistribution schemes.

In America , the aged pay a small monthly amount for Medicare, a government administered program that allows one freedom of choice of physician, hospital, etc.

The poor have access to Medicaid, which they pay nothing for, another government administered program.

The majority of Americans have health care insurance through their employer. These programs may be funded 100% by the employer, or in a collaboration between the employee and employer.

There are a variety of programs and services from which the employee can choose, more, if he chooses to pay more. From basic catastrophic coverage to full medical coverage.

There are few for profit acute care hospitals, most are non profit facilities. They can pay their operating costs and carry over a percentage of profit for emergencies in the coming fiscal year.

Most physicians are in private medical groups, and they are for profit, and that is a good thing.

A physician is rarely an employee. He has a vested interest in providing quality service in a timely matter. If he does not, market forces apply and the customer will find another health care provider.

Sometimes insurance companies will only approve services from a network of providers, and no others, yet the patient has freedom of choice within the network.

The freedom to choose a hospital is another benefit of market principles, those hospitals that do not provide quality services to their patients don´t get enough patients to pay their costs.

Americans are always suspicious of government intruding in their lives. We don want the government telling us what doctors we can see, dictate to the doctor what tests or procedures he can use, or tell us what hospital we can check in to.

Anything with government control, is a bureaucratic mess rushing to mediocrity.

I have read of the horrendous waits for surgeries and other procedures in Britain. In the US, if a physician determines that a procedure is required at a hospital it gets scheduled, quickly. When it was determined that my knee needed to be replaced, in ten days I had the surgery.

I know less of the Canadian system, but I do know that many Canadians come to the US for treatment. One man I spoke with wanted his surgery done, and he was tired of waiting in pain, so he came to the US and had it done.

I would much rather pay my healthcare premiums, pay lower taxes, and have my healthcare decisions made by my physician and me, not some government bureaucrat, and an employee doctor who knows I have to see him, regardless
 
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