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Non-Orthodox
- Thread starter Dena
- Start date
Easier to post here I guess. But I'm unusual in that I'm Sephardic and these 'branches' don't mean too much to me. I was born into an Orthodox community but then my parents moved to a Traditional shul and now currently I live down the street from a Reform temple and daven there! (no where else in miles, it's almost rural here)
Of course then I have my other 'odd' non-Orthodox branch... :run:
Of course then I have my other 'odd' non-Orthodox branch... :run:
So I take it your don't think the Rabbi there should be executed? Yes, I've actually heard someone say they should all be killed. I'm going to a Reform Temple tonight. I'm going to go to a Conservative Synagogue too and eventually Orthodox. I'm easing myself into it.
LOL, no I'm pretty neutral on these 'branches'. As I said my culture is unfamiliar with this mindset. To us, there are just Jews who are more observant, and Jews who are less observant, and this can and often does change during the course of many Jew's lives. I suspect that the anger you describe is more directed at Rabbis who will preside over an intermarriage, as Reform ones are suspected of doing this more than other branches. I don't see this myself, our Rabbi won't. Besides there's civil ceremonies so you can't blame intermarriage on the Rabbi!!
Good for you for trying out various ones. Keep in mind that even within a branch there is quite a range of expression and variation one shul to another. If you can find one, try out a Traditional shul too. It's sorta between Conservative and Orthodox. Home observances are virtually the same as Orthodox but the Temple experience is more intimate and casual, as families can all sit together as there's no special section for women-only. (But single men and single women seem to sit apart anyways, habit I suppose)
Dena
Active Member
The hatred is listed for a multitude of reasons such as..
-they twist the Torah
- they encourage Jews to break commandments
- they allow women to sing
- they allow men and women to sit next to one another
- and the commandment that when you see your friend sinning you should hate him (pesachim 113b)?
The Reform Jews I know (I don't know the Rabbi that well, TBH) simply have the philosophy that every Jew should have the freedom to be as observant as their own conscience tells them to. I'm observant in ways that many of them are not, but they have the general reaction of 'more power to ya!' than anything else, and seem happy for me that I find meaning in these ways. Never has anyone ever discouraged anything I do, and I feel free to encourage them to also observe more and those who see the meaning in them often do so. It's all a very non-judgmental environment, and as a Sephardic Jew I feel more at home in such rather than some environments where lots of peer pressure is brought to bear on those who are a bit non-traditional.
So do Traditional shuls!
ya got me there...
Dena
Active Member
Yeah. But there are a few people out there who think it's sinful and equivalent to encouraging them to break God's Laws. I doubt I would EVER run into these people in real life. Especially since nearly 50% of the Jewish population in my city considers themself Reform and only 5% are Orthodox. But online? Wow..some people get really really worked up about it.
ya got me there...
I don't understand that one either. I tried to look it up but got nothing.
vq40mastiff
Member
nope, secular it is.
Reform.
Levite
Higher and Higher
I suppose I should say Conservative, since I my rabbinic affiliation is with the Conservative movement. But I guess if anything I'm Reconformadox.... Movements mean less to me than whether a person is halakhic or not. And I don't mean observant to any particular halakhic standard or not, just whether or not they feel bound to observe the mitzvot, in some way, according to some minimal definition of halakhah....
Nonsense.
Levite
Higher and Higher
Dude, what's eating you? I usually go out of my way to avoid responding to anything you post, because it seems clear you don't care for me, but to be fair, you don't seem to have a kind word for anyone.
I won't ask anybody to like me, but do you think you could at least not go out of your way to be rude? "Reconformadox." Problems figuring out Jewish identity, cast in an amusing way. It was a joke, not a request to be judged. If you didn't think it was funny, just let it go.
I don't mean to be offensive, and I have no wish to be a flamer, but that was just uncalled for. You think I suck, that's your prerogative, and I don't care to deprive you of it. But what happened to the doctrine of, "If you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all?"
Let's not forget about grumpy-old-man-ism of which I'm a dues-paying member. On the board in fact.
Jews often move back and forth though the branches, (look at me!) and more likely than not, elements of previous branches are Incorporated in one's ongoing Judaism. It's a process, a path.
Besides, let's not fight in front of the goyim, it looks bad...
Jews often move back and forth though the branches, (look at me!) and more likely than not, elements of previous branches are Incorporated in one's ongoing Judaism. It's a process, a path.
Besides, let's not fight in front of the goyim, it looks bad...
Levite
Higher and Higher
Let's not forget about grumpy-old-man-ism of which I'm a dues-paying member. On the board in fact.
Jews often move back and forth though the branches, (look at me!) and more likely than not, elements of previous branches are Incorporated in one's ongoing Judaism. It's a process, a path.
Besides, let's not fight in front of the goyim, it looks bad...
Well taken, sir. I hereby shut my mouth on the subject.
Levite
Higher and Higher
I know that this is somewhat settled, but I did just pay attention to the above part of the thread, and figured I might as well drop in my $0.02 about that, also, so....
As for the list of reasons:
1. "Twisting the Torah" is a harsh judgment. Once upon a time, Jews used to respect the tradition of makhloket l'shem shamayim, "dispute for the sake of Heaven;" our tradition teaches us that multiple viewpoints can and should be tolerated, if for no other reason than to prevent sinat hinam, "baseless hatred" between Jews, and to preserve shalom bayit b'Yisrael, "peace within the household of Israel." I don't agree with the Reform movement on most things, but calling them names and otherwise abusing them won't change their minds.
2. They don't encourage Jews to break the commandments in the Conservative movement, and for the most part, they tend not to do so in the Reform movement, although they are much more active in their toleration for not following the commandments. The Conservative movement tends to encourage following the commandments, and is rather passive about tolerating breaking them. But many of the instances that Haredim (Ultra-Orthodox) like to cite of Conservative and Reform Jews "encouraging the breaking of the commandments" really reflects the fact that they refuse to acknowledge the authority of Conservative and Reform rabbis to interpret halakhah. There are often perfectly good legal bases for different observances, but the Haredim just won't accept them, because they don't want to hear them.
3. The tradition about kol isha, the prohibition of "woman's voice," is a custom of musar, or ascetic tradition, and is based on non-binding narrative material in the Talmud-- descriptions of customs, not legislated statutes. Prohibiting women from singing publicly is a needless stricture: it holds no weight in halakhah, and those who say it does say so under the rubric of a rule that long-held custom holds the same weight as legislated law; which is true until people stop following the custom, for any valid reason. Orthodoxy has forgotten that custom can be overturned for any valid legal reason.
4. Again, the separation of men and women in synagogue is based on a non-binding, narrative section of the Talmud: a discussion of the parts of the Second Temple, wherein even the Rabbis of the Talmud are unsure what the names of certain parts signified. Many Jewish communities through the centuries have not separated men and women. In fact, most synagogues in the US did not separate men and women prior to the late 1930s and 40s, when immigrants from pre- and post-war Europe flooded into American congregations, and brought their own local customs with them, which included a separation barrier. But there is absolutely no reason that such a separation must exist. I have been to many Traditional synagogues, as well as some Modern Orthodox synagogues where no such separation exists.
5. That's not what Pesachim 113b says. First of all, this is mostly a non-binding narrative section of Talmud, describing personal interpretations and practices of different Rabbis, not legislation or binding legal interpretation. Second, what they actually say is that when a person is guilty of a capital offense deriving from a sexual prohibition, according to the eyewitness testimony of two witnesses, proven before a rabbinical court-- then one is permitted to hate that person (according to Rabbi Shmuel bar Rav Yitzhak), and one Rabbi (Rav Nahman bar Yitzhak) personally believes that doing so may be required; but that is personal opinion, not a binding interpretation of the law.
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