Non Religious countries do better

[Man of Faith]

Yes it does, but what does that have to with anything?

Is that why modern bioethics says that mankind is no more important than a weed in a garden? How many atheists go by that?

 

[jamesmorrow]

Very few atheists live like their philosophy of life is true. Most live like there is purpose and meaning in life, like there is such a thing as personhood, like there are moral values and duties in life, and like we should take care of the weak and old. In fact most all of them live like Christians, so the OP is debunked.

There are some atheists that live like their philosophy of life is true, and they were in the old Soviet Union and in N Korea where people are treated like wards of the state and have no value except the value that they have to the government.

this is true. the atheist religion and philosophy is based on life in the soviet motherland and north korean fatherland.... atheists have no morals and live based on survival of the fittest. atheists like to abort babies, have gay anal sex, and persecute innocent christians. this is the truth.

 

[Man of Faith]

ToE? Really?

Talk about giant strawmen.

Ethics and morals are simply societal norms. What is believed to be for the greater good of a society, is ethical and moral. The reason there is a version of the “Golden Rule” in nearly every culture in history is that humans do not want harm to come to themselves, therefore they restrain from doing harm to others within their society.

Ethics and morality change and evolve to fit current societal evolution.

All atheists have is the ToE and bioethics to go by. Anything else would be going away from their worldview and into the Christian worldview. There is no way for the atheist to know whether the Golden Rule is good or bad for society or for the advancement of the evolution of mankind.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Atheists and agnostics didn't build the nations of western Europe into what they are today, Christians did. It's only recently that western Europeans have largely abandoned their faith.

 

[Tristesse]

Is that why modern bioethics says that mankind is no more important than a weed in a garden? How many atheists go by that?

We're talking about morality, and morality is a very practical aspect of life. And evolution addresses populations and not individuals, so whats best for society tends to be things that help our survival and not hinder it. For example, I don't want to be killed or have my stuff taken, and I find others who share this view, so we implement laws to punish those who kill or steel. And from there we start developing more intricate systems of morality that benefit us as a species. This really isn't quite as complicated as some make it out to be.

 

[Tristesse]

Atheists and agnostics didn't build the nations of western Europe into what they are today, Christians did. It's only recently that western Europeans have largely abandoned their faith.

What difference does that make? It wasn't non christians who implemented the crusades in europe.

 

[Tristesse]

All atheists have is the ToE and bioethics to go by. Anything else would be going away from their worldview and into the Christian worldview. There is no way for the atheist to know whether the Golden Rule is good or bad for society or for the advancement of the evolution of mankind.

No, thats not remotely true. If you found out tomorrow that there isn't a god(i'm playing hypothetical, so play along for a moment), would you run around killing and raping etc...?

 

[tumbleweed41]

All atheists have is the ToE and bioethics to go by. Anything else would be going away from their worldview and into the Christian worldview. There is no way for the atheist to know whether the Golden Rule is good or bad for society or for the advancement of the evolution of mankind.

The simple fact that you only included "the Christian worldview" as the alternative to atheism shows the bias of your projectionism.
You cannot accept that such base things as societal survivability and personal welbeing can result in societal ethics.
It is sad that that you feel that you personally must have divine command to act in a socially ethically and moral way. How hard it must be for you to see others behave ethically and morally without such divine command.

 

[Man of Faith]

Atheists and agnostics didn't build the nations of western Europe into what they are today, Christians did. It's only recently that western Europeans have largely abandoned their faith.

Good post. That's true and as they move away from Christianity we see that humans become less valued. Abortion on demand becomes rampant, socialism takes over and the old is denied proper healthcare so the young and strong can get it, and the government becomes all powerful.

 

[Man of Faith]

The simple fact that you only included "the Christian worldview" as the alternative to atheism shows the bias of your projectionism.
You cannot accept that such a base things as societal survivability and personal welbeing can result in societal ethics.
It is sad that that you feel that you personally must have divine command to act in a socially ethically and moral way. How hard it must be for you to see others behave ethically and morally without such divine command.

Let's talk about projectionism for a moment, you are projecting morals and values as coming from the ToE.

 

[Man of Faith]

No, thats not remotely true. If you found out tomorrow that there isn't a god(i'm playing hypothetical, so play along for a moment), would you run around killing and raping etc...?

No, because I was raised in the Christian worldview and most atheists are also. But when you find that some atheists are not raised in the Christian worldview, such as in N. Korea then watch out.

 

[Tristesse]

Good post. That's true and as they move away from Christianity we see that humans become less valued. Abortion on demand becomes rampant, socialism takes over and the old is denied proper healthcare so the young and strong can get it, and the government becomes all powerful.

Yes, it was much better when those of other faiths were being tortured and sluaghtered in deference to their god. Oh what fun times those must have been. When irrationality prevailes over reason attrocities occur.

 

[Man of Faith]

atheists have no morals.

I wouldn't say that. What I would say is that they have morals because they were raised in a Christian worldview when their worldview says that humans are no more important than weeds in a garden.

 

[Tristesse]

No, because I was raised in the Christian worldview and most atheists are also. But when you find that some atheists are not raised in the Christian worldview, such as in N. Korea then watch out.

I wasn't raised in a christian "worldview," I was raised in a secular home in a secular country. But the answer is no, so, whether or not a god exist doesn't seem to be any deterant to your morality.

 

[Man of Faith]

I wasn't raised in a christian "worldview," I was raised in a secular home in a secular country. But the answer is no, so, whether or not a god exist doesn't seem to be any deterant to your morality.

I see you were live in CA if that is correct, so yes you were raised in a Christian worldview. Everybody that is born and raised in the US whether they are raised in a religious family or not, live and operate on the worldview given by Christians, the founding fathers, most of them.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

What difference does that make? It wasn't non christians who implemented the crusades in europe.

I'm saying that the blessings that agnostic Europe is enjoying right now are the result of what Christians built so it's hardly a testament to the virtues of agnosticism/atheism.

 

[Tristesse]

I see you were live in CA if that is correct, so yes you were raised in a Christian worldview. Everybody that is born and raised in the US whether they are raised in a religious family or not, live and operate on the worldview given by Christians, the founding fathers, most of them.

Thats an astounding bit of revisionist history. It's true most of the founding fathers were christian, some were diest and some I suspect were atheist. But one thing most of them had in common, is the goal of creating a country where religion was not the prevailing source, but rather reason. The founding fathers were inspired mostly by the german freethinkers of the time. The first amendment is the boldest statement not in favor of christianity, but inspite of it. And nowhere in our governing document does it make reference to a god, and the only time religion is mentioned is to state that government shall not respect an establishment, or "play favorites" with one religion over the other. One thing the founding fathers realized is that they all had differing views on religion, and in order to ensure that all views are protected, the government must remain neutral on issues pertaining to religion, this way everyone is protected. Not just the majority, but also the minority. So, in no way is this country "founded" on christianity, just because most were christian doesn't mean that they wanted a country "founded" on those principals.

 

[Tristesse]

I'm saying that the blessings that agnostic Europe is enjoying right now are the result of what Christians built so it's hardly a testament to the virtues of agnosticism/atheism.

Ok, and christians were pretty good at ensuring that their beliefs were the only ones to survive.

 

[Marble]

I will argue here that living in a democratic country with many atheists is actually a good thing.
--------------------------------------------- snap -----------------------------------------------
My main point is that the facts show that being more non-religious is not that bad which all the statistic show.

Especially for women. :yes:
I think this is true.
Perhaps non-religious people realize that they have to handle their problems themselves while perhaps religious people expect that God solves their problems for them, or they think that obeying their scripture (Bible, Quran,...) will make things better.
And then of course there is the question of authority: Like it or not, religion (any) is often used to legitimate those in power.

Do you have sources for your data?

Sources please, I suggest you have many.

I think he cannot post links yet.

 

[Man of Faith]

Thats an astounding bit of revisionist history. It's true most of the founding fathers were christian, some were diest and some I suspect were atheist. But one thing most of them had in common, is the goal of creating a country where religion was not the prevailing source, but rather reason. The founding fathers were inspired mostly by the german freethinkers of the time. The first amendment is the boldest statement not in favor of christianity, but inspite of it. And nowhere in our governing document does it make reference to a god, and the only time religion is mentioned is to state that government shall not respect an establishment, or "play favorites" with one religion over the other. One thing the founding fathers realized is that they all had differing views on religion, and in order to ensure that all views are protected, the government must remain neutral on issues pertaining to religion, this way everyone is protected. Not just the majority, but also the minority. So, in no way is this country "founded" on christianity, just because most were christian doesn't mean that they wanted a country "founded" on those principals.

Atheist countries don't have a first amendment, so again that is a Christian value that atheists embrace when they should be embracing communism.