Non-Trinitarian Belief

[Coder]

Many religious including those who use the Christian Bible, are non-trinitarian. This appears to be a potential trend.

Some believe that Jesus has a particular role and relationship to God, other's don't. However, all believe that God is one in the non-trinitarian sense.

Jewish people, Muslims, Christadelphians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals, Unitarian Christians, have been active for many years (centuries in some cases).

We also see a new "reformation" movement: 21st Century Reformation...

One God Over All – Overview - 21st Century Reformation

21stcr.org

... and another non-trinitarian church, First Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ

Truth Of God – First Church Of Our Lord Jesus Christ

truthofgod.com

The Catholic Church is also making subtle hints and changes:

• "consubstantial" as opposed to "one in being".
• Moving away from the term "Roman" to simply "Catholic"
• Article such as the one below about the Jewish understanding of the Holy Spirit (link below)
• Encouraging common prayer with our Jewish friends (which of course, would be non-trinitarian prayer, link below)

https://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01021998_p-24_en.html

"Although in Jewish scripture the Holy Spirit is never presented as a person..."

Guidelines for Catholic-Jewish Relations

Secretariat for Catholic-Jewish Relations Bishops' Committee for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs National Conference of Catholic Bishops 1985 Re...

www.usccb.org

"Prayer in common with Jews should, when mutually acceptable, be encouraged,.."

We also see a Jewish Rabbi, Rabbi Singer, who is an expert in both Jewish and Christian Scriptures, who teaches about God as one and the deficiency of the trinitarian proposition.

 

[Spice]

Please present your argument.

 

[Questioning]

Those who for a change, believe the Bible.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Many religious including those who use the Christian Bible, are non-trinitarian. This appears to be a potential trend.

Some believe that Jesus has a particular role and relationship to God, other's don't. However, all believe that God is one in the non-trinitarian sense.

Jewish people, Muslims, Christadelphians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals, Unitarian Christians, have been active for many years (centuries in some cases).

We also see a new "reformation" movement: 21st Century Reformation...

One God Over All – Overview - 21st Century Reformation

21stcr.org

... and another non-trinitarian church, First Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ

Truth Of God – First Church Of Our Lord Jesus Christ

truthofgod.com

The Catholic Church is also making subtle hints and changes:

• "consubstantial" as opposed to "one in being".
• Moving away from the term "Roman" to simply "Catholic"
• Article such as the one below about the Jewish understanding of the Holy Spirit (link below)
• Encouraging common prayer with our Jewish friends (which of course, would be non-trinitarian prayer, link below)

https://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01021998_p-24_en.html

"Although in Jewish scripture the Holy Spirit is never presented as a person..."

Guidelines for Catholic-Jewish Relations

Secretariat for Catholic-Jewish Relations Bishops' Committee for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs National Conference of Catholic Bishops 1985 Re...

www.usccb.org

"Prayer in common with Jews should, when mutually acceptable, be encouraged,.."

We also see a Jewish Rabbi, Rabbi singer, who is an expert in both Jewish and Christian Scriptures, who teaches about God as one and the deficiency of the trinitarian proposition.

I think that anti-Trinitarianism is flawed theology. But anyway, I wanted to point out that one notable, non-Trinitarian Christian is Issac Newton. I whole-heartedly recommend this particular biography of Newton that discusses this particular aspect of his life in some detail:

Priest of Nature - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[jesussetsusfree]

Trinity was sold to us by apostle Paul, who often contradicts himself, including on how he received his apostleship and how Jesus came to him in a "trance" in the desert outside of Damascas. jesus continues to seperate himself from the father "who is not of this world" " who is in heaven" telling us not to worship him but only the father. except in book of John it may appear that Jesus says he is god,but after research on translations one can see what happened

 

[Regiomontanus]

Trinity was sold to us by apostle Paul, who often contradicts himself, including on how he received his apostleship and how Jesus came to him in a "trance" in the desert outside of Damascas. jesus continues to seperate himself from the father "who is not of this world" " who is in heaven" telling us not to worship him but only the father. except in book of John it may appear that Jesus says he is god,but after research on translations one can see what happened

Hello. So, you see no support for trinitarianism in the NT ourside of Paul?

 

[Coder]

Those who for a change, believe the Bible.

Interesting input of belief! Thank you! Ironically, many people of faith that don't believe that the NT is inspired by God, such as Jewish, and Islamic, are non-trinitarian. Many older religions believed in multiple "gods", as I'm sure that you and others here know.

I believe that inspirations of God may be found in the Bible but I also believe that much of the NT has passages that were designed for Greco-Roman polytheists as well as for Jewish people and perhaps in cooperation with the Roman empire, for the purposes of a unified religion ("all things to all people"). Even the passages about Jesus as messiah appear (to me and some scholars) to be contrived to attract Jewish people to Christianity. As such, I would not consider this to be "inspired of God" in the sense that many people may understand it. I also find that few seem to discuss what "inspired of God" of "word of God" means, so I am interested in that topic also.

 

[jesussetsusfree]

Hello. So, you see no support for trinitarianism in the NT ourside of Paul?

Overall no, It is not the biggest mistake by far to believe that they are one or not, not worth arguing over, Regardless the message is the same and where one believes the message comes from the messiah as himself as jesus states that he only says and does what the father tells him to. Paul is the one who was fixated on this, but Paul came after Jesus and one of the many reasons he was constantly defending himself in his 11 epistles. Afterall he did come with a message unknown and untaught by man and it was from a mystical revelation of Jesus. However Jesus already told us taht when he comes back everyone will see him. So much of Pauls words over salvation, receiving holy spirit, eternal life are in direct diferrence of what Jesus taught in the flesh. Pauls message is most often taught in main stream christianity, but he is not our father although he claims he is in his epistles. Jesus is at the right hand of the father and is now the judge according to Jesus. Trinity is a doctrine never mentioned by Jesus. So i do not belive it it. It was pushed by the Roman catholic church. Bless you, have a wonderful evening

 

[jesussetsusfree]

Interesting input of belief! Thank you! Ironically, many people of faith that don't believe that the NT is inspired by God, such as Jewish, and Islamic, are non-trinitarian. Many older religions believed in multiple "gods", as I'm sure that you and others here know.

I believe that inspirations of God may be found in the Bible but I also believe that much of the NT has passages that were designed for Greco-Roman polytheists as well as for Jewish people and perhaps in cooperation with the Roman empire, for the purposes of a unified religion ("all things to all people"). Even the passages about Jesus being messiah appear (to me and some scholars) to be contrived to attract Jewish people to Christianity. As such, I would not consider this to be "inspired of God" in the sense that many people may understand it. I also find that few seem to discuss what "inspired of God" of "word of God" means, so I am interested in that topic also.

I do believe Jesus is our messiah, due to old testament prophecy's and how much the world hates his name and kill people for following him. Other religions and false gods are not persecute like this when people choose to follow them. However our only one and true God warned us that the bible would be altered by adding to his word and omitting his word which is noted in Deuteronomy 4:2 " Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you" .and at the end of bible Jesus says Revelation 22:18 "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy contained in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described[aj] in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life[ak] and in the holy city that are described in this book." In Malachi 3:6 " I am lord God and I change not" God warns of the lying scribes in the bible and jesus came to only say and do what God told him according to Jesus words. That is why Jesus is always saying to follow him, because we have a choice, but you can not follow the bible because the bible has many contradictions mainly due to Pauls epistles. Pauls epistles are most heavily practiced by the mega churches in which Paul gives us freedom and teaches that salvation is a very simple process by just believing that Jesus is savior and son of God, and once you confess with your mouth you are saved, according to Paul, where Jesus and James teach that Salvation is a continued process toward being righteous and then list commands to achieve this. Paul teaches once saved you are always saved. This gives one the ticket to sin and still be forgiven and mega churches are known for sexual immoratily and mishandling of tithing money but they believe who cares because they are saved and repent only with their mouth. Woe to them! IF pauls epistles were not in there, Jesus is easy to understand. Paul came after jesus and he changed the message never citing anything Jesus said. Yet Paul says follow him... We can not follow both.

 

[Coder]

So much of Pauls words over salvation, receiving holy spirit,...

Interesting that the concept of the Holy Spirit is found in both Zoroastrianism and Judaism.

Zoroastrianism, Holy Spirit: "source of life"
Catholicism, Holy Spirit: "giver of life"

I don't believe in a need for such a terminology, to speak about God's relation to what we call the physical world (which even that we don't fully understand), or for any discussion about God.

 

[Coder]

I do believe Jesus is our messiah,

Ironically, I think that if one observes the majority of teachings of Jesus as depicted in the Bible, he speaks relatively little about being the messiah. I'm not saying not at all, I'm only saying relatively little. We do see Peter (a Jewish man) saying that he is. However, there we also see Peter calling Jesus the son of God, as if these concepts are bound in some way. I see this as a clear insertion by NT authors to cover the bases for Jewish people and at the same time include the Greco-Romans with the "gods" and "sons of gods" concepts, and also connect this to "messiah" concept.

Messiah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"In Judaism, the Messiah is not considered to be God or a pre-existent divine Son of God."

 

[jesussetsusfree]

Sorry, not for sure what you are saying. holy spirit is simply the spirit of truth and how to receive is a little confusing per bible texts due to Paul. Jesus tells us if we love him we will follow his commands and then the father and him will come make their home inside of us. We are to stand up and speak and it will be us speaking but the father, This is what he commanded his disciples when they will stand up and be persecuted in the synagogues. However, things are confusing if you read Pauls message in which the modern day chuch as chosen. bible has been altered in which Jesus and God told us it would. However, Jesus also said that he is coming back to judge those based on their works in revelations However, most churches on their salvation pages says works have nothing to do with salavtion. Little strange

 

[jesussetsusfree]

Ironically, I think that if one observes the majority of teachings of Jesus as depicted in the Bible, he speaks relatively little about being the messiah. I'm not saying not at all, I'm only saying relatively little. We do see Peter (a Jewish man) saying that he is. However, there we also see Peter calling Jesus the son of God, as if these concepts are bound in some way. I see this as a clear insertion by NT authors to cover the bases for Jewish people and at the same time include the Greco-Romans with the "gods" and "sons of gods" concepts, and also connect this to "messiah" concept.

Messiah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"In Judaism, the Messiah is not considered to be God or a pre-existent divine Son of God."

Are you saying Jesus is not the Messiah? I understand what you are saying about the son of god, because Jesus already told us we could do what he could do, because is going to be at the right hand of father and will come make his home inside of us based on our obedience on keeping his commands. However, if he is our judge which he says he now is. The lady at the well he confirms that he is the messiah? But yes, I know Paul is the one who claims he is the Christ.

 

[Coder]

...holy spirit is simply the spirit of truth and how to receive is a little confusing per bible texts due to Paul...

This is your belief. I respect that and I understand that you believe the Bible about that. I think that the passages where Jesus personifies the Holy Spirit coincide with the trinity concept, and all of it fits the design of the NT purpose to unite the empire including the Greco-Roman polytheists and the Jewish people. By personifying the Holy Spirit, it relates it to the Greco-Roman "gods" but the Holy Spirit is also a non-personified concept in Judaism, but the attempt at unity was made. It did not work for the Jewish people, and I think it naive to think that it would or will today.

"Although in Jewish scripture the Holy Spirit is never presented as a person..."

https://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01021998_p-24_en.html

bible has been altered ...

We agree in this realm, as you can see. (I go a bit further.)

 

[Coder]

Are you saying Jesus is not the Messiah? I understand what you are saying about the son of god, because Jesus already told us we could do what he could do, because is going to be at the right hand of father and will come make his home inside of us based on our obedience on keeping his commands. However, if he is our judge which he says he now is. The lady at the well he confirms that he is the messiah? But yes, I know Paul is the one who claims he is the Christ.

The Jewish people are saying that he has not. I don't believe that they are "blind" as the NT attempts to say. Many things that are expected of messiah have not happened. (If say 2nd coming, then response is yes messiah is not full messiah yet. So for all practical purposes (even 2nd coming) messiah still has not come.)

 

[jesussetsusfree]

What about Revelations in which Jesus came back and destroyed the temple and there were eye witnessess of him in the clouds coming Like he said he would. This is from Apostle John who was still alive and jesus told the disciples before he ascended that he would be back and not all of them wold have been dead? I am assuming you know aht I am talking about?

 

[Coder]

What about Revelations...

Yes, clouds of glory?

Still: For all practical purposes (even 2nd coming) messiah still has not come.

 

[Coder]

I wanted to point out that one notable, non-Trinitarian Christian is Issac Newton...

Thanks kindly, I have respect for Isaac Newton.

 

[jesussetsusfree]

I have been taught we may be entering the 1000 years of peace. but who knows. The bad were to be removed according to Jesus and this is what I watch going on, but if it is true, this will be revealed soon. Not saying this is the way it is, but I pretty much believe it, but I don't hold fast to it, meaning, it could not be it. we will know soon. Afterall Jesus only got like 8 hours worth of his words and yes I know some were skewed as you notice. However, after going through of burning his books and hiding them in the "vatigan" and going to all this work to hid his words, I have to believe he is our judge and high priest ( bridge between us and the father) so you believe Jesus was just a prophet?

 

[jesussetsusfree]

I have been taught we may be entering the 1000 years of peace. but who knows. The bad were to be removed according to Jesus and this is what I watch going on, but if it is true, this will be revealed soon. Not saying this is the way it is, but I pretty much believe it, but I don't hold fast to it, meaning, it could not be it. we will know soon. Afterall Jesus only got like 8 hours worth of his words and yes I know some were skewed as you notice. However, after going through of burning his books and hiding them in the "vatigan" and going to all this work to hid his words, I have to believe he is our judge and high priest ( bridge between us and the father) so you believe Jesus was just a prophet?