None have Suffered More

[InvestigateTruth]

Jesus? Sure. The Bab and Baha'u'llah? Yeah. Now tell me how the others suffered to that extreme? Adam? Noah? Abraham? Moses? Zoroaster? Krishna? Buddha? Muhammad?

Abraham was thrown into fire. Moses was most likely martyred, and so was the rest of Jewish prophets, but no record of history, though the Quran alluded they were killed. Zoraster was Martyred too Adam and Noah are too old. I am pretty sure they were either put to death, or at lest imprisoned or made to suffer. Muhammad Himself said, no Prophet ever suffered as much as He did. According to some traddditions He was poisoned.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's a pretty big and important question. If Abdul Baha' and Shoghi Effendi are wrong and the Buddha is not a manifestation of God, that changes a lot of things. Number one being that Buddhism is not recognized by the Baha'i Faith as a true and revealed religion of the Abrahamic God. And then, what do Baha'is do with Krishna?

What Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi offered in the Official Writings is scripture and a truth to be embraced. This is unchallengeable, unchangeable, as it it is the power of the Covernant.

Baha'u'llah warned us of a time when even the Baha'is start questioning that authority, having doubts because of what they face from others. This is because popular thoughts, which are still based in a gross materialisim, starts to try to erode the potential of that Message.

I am happy I started the thread, I have learnt much, and if people actually start discussing this, I will learn a lot more.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Abraham was thrown into fire. Moses was most likely martyred, and so was the rest of Jewish prophets, but no record of history, though the Quran alluded they were killed. Zoraster was Martyred too Adam and Noah are too old. I am pretty sure they were either put to death, or at lest imprisoned or made to suffer. Muhammad Himself said, no Prophet ever suffered as much as He did. According to some traddditions He was poisoned.

I was trying to take the OP to the level of our spiritual consciousness.

I have lived 40 years with a sufferer of both poor physical health (many operations) and manic depression.

The physical ills are overcome, the mental anxiety disorders are not easily overcome.

I imagine the Messengers hearing all the cries for help, knowing that many a cry is not ready for the answers they seek!

I would love to hear your thoughts, you get to read the wrirings in it's original language, what do you think is being offered?

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I see all the Messengers of God have had to suffer greatly. This OP is about all the Messengers and Prophets that have come from God.

I see their suffering was for us and our neglect of their Messages brings great sadness upon all humanity. They accepted all that suffering, and still do, so we can be released from our chains and bondage to this world.

I also weep for our neglect, as it is their Love that we reject, how can we be forgiven?

I offer a thought from the Baha'i Writings on this topic and ask also for your thoughts.

It has been recorded that during the last years of Bahá'u'lláh's exile in Baghdád, that He spoke many times of the period of trial and hardship that was to come and one such warning revealed to Him was recorded from a dream He had, which is described as follows:

"I saw," He wrote in a Tablet, "the Prophets and the Messengers gather and seat themselves around Me, moaning, weeping and loudly lamenting. Amazed, I inquired of them the reason, whereupon their lamentation and weeping waxed greater, and they said unto me: `We weep for Thee, O Most Great Mystery, O Tabernacle of Immortality!' They wept with such a weeping that I too wept with them. Thereupon the Concourse on high addressed Me saying: `...Erelong shalt Thou behold with Thine own eyes what no Prophet hath beheld.... Be patient, be patient.'... They continued addressing Me the whole night until the approach of dawn." -- Bahá'u'lláh, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 147

I see the above passsage is applicable to all the Prophets and Messengers, as it the following quote.

"..Thou wert created to bear and endure, O Patience of the worlds..." Bahá’u’lláh, The Fire Tablet, Bahá’í Prayers, p. 317

Imagine what they take on for humanity, they bring Love, we offer hate. They bring peace we offer war. They one and all, suffer for us.

So what are your thoughts? Can you imagine any greater suffering than what the Prophets and Messengers have faced?

Regards Tony

Yes, I remember a QUOTE from Baha'u'llah that He was speaking of the suffering of previous Messengers, as well as Himself. Then He alluded about the suffering that the next Manifestation after Him will go through, which will be even more severe.
I thought about it. I imagine, the Bahais in those days, are no longer upright anymore. That's why they will make Him suffer. They will tell Him, either refrain from your claim, or as our Most Holy Book says, God will send someone to deal with you severely. Then they will put Him in the fire and burn Him alive. They will say, our Holy Book says if someone burns a home, he must be put in the fire, now this man, is a threat to our Bahai Faith, which is necessary to save mankind, thus this man deserves to be burned 10 times, Nay, a 1000 times for he is buring the whole world by misguiding everyone. So, they will put Him into the fire just as Abraham was put. In those days, the stars are fallen, and who are the stars in those days? We know Baha'u'llah protects the Universal House of Justice, and has made it infallible, but will this be forever, or until the time of the next Manifestation?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So basically, according to the Bahai, manifestations of God are cry babies. Got it.

Actually, that rey reflects no understanding of what the OP was trying to explore.

It was an attempt to explore what is true sufferings, is it purly material, is it purely spiritual, or is it both?

Personally I see the sufferings are mentioned as a bounty to us, the Messengers word it in a way that they take the burden away from us.

Would be happy discussing than defending the right to offer these thoughts.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, I remember a QUOTE from Baha'u'llah that He was speaking of the suffering of previous Messengers, as well as Himself. Then He alluded about the suffering that the next Manifestation after Him will go through, which will be even more severe.

I think that is the one I may be looking for, thank you, I have new keywords to use now and will search again.

Now I can understand why we should put to memory many quotes!

Regards Tony

 

[sayak83]

Actually, that rey reflects no understanding of what the OP was trying to explore.

It was an attempt to explore what is true sufferings, is it purly material, is it purely spiritual, or is it both?

Personally I see the sufferings are mentioned as a bounty to us, the Messengers word it in a way that they take the burden away from us.

Would be happy discussing than defending the right to offer these thoughts.

Regards Tony

No it was not. It was an exercise in apologetics and glorifications of the prophets as understood from the Bahai perspective.
Here are the first lines of the OP

"I see all the Messengers of God have had to suffer greatly. This OP is about all the Messengers and Prophets that have come from God.

I see their suffering was for us and our neglect of their Messages brings great sadness upon all humanity. They accepted all that suffering, and still do, so we can be released from our chains and bondage to this world."

 

[loverofhumanity]

Baha'i laws that prohibit homosexual behaviors (for Baha'is only) are not bigotry at all, not in ANY sense of the word.

It is only bigotry in your opinion. That does not mean it IS bigotry.
It is only immoral in your opinion. That does not mean it IS immoral.
All this is only a matter of personal opinion.

That is why it is slander to keep insisting that Baha'is accept bigotry.

Bigotry: obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
bigotry means - Google Search

Read the definition above. Baha'is are not prejudiced against homosexuals just because there is a Baha'i law that prohibits homosexual behaviors for Baha'is, not any more than we are prejudiced against couples who have sex out of wedlock just because the Baha'i laws prohibit such behavior for Baha'is. The Baha'i Faith has a very high standard for sexual behavior for Baha'is only but we are not expecting others to follow our standards.

I do not avoid it because I know that the Laws put forth by Baha'u'llah are the epitome of morality. In fact, one reason I am so attracted to the Baha'i Faith is because of those laws, as I believe they are the last hope for a humanity that is thoroughly entrenched in immoral sexual behavior. What this has done to society sickens me to no end.

Keep calling me a bigot if you want to. Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hut=rt me, especially because I know they are not true.

If I wanted to stoop to your level I could call you a bigot, since you have an obstinate or unreasonable attachment to the belief that homosexuality is moral and acceptable, and you have a prejudice against the Baha'is on the basis of their membership in the Baha'i Faith, since we disagree with what you believe about homosexuality.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you read the OP, it says it is applicable to all the Prophets, but I think I found the quote I based the OP on, Baha'u'llah quoted Muhammad, and offered this.

"...For this reason did Muḥammad cry out: “No Prophet of God hath suffered such harm as I have suffered.” And in the Qur’án are recorded all the calumnies and reproaches uttered against Him, as well as all the afflictions which He suffered. Refer ye thereunto, that haply ye may be informed of that which hath befallen His Revelation. So grievous was His plight, that for a time all ceased to hold intercourse with Him and His companions. Whoever associated with Him fell a victim to the relentless cruelty of His enemies.…"

The Bible offers

Acts 3:18 "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled"

To me Christ is all the Messengers and it has been fulfilled they all suffered, how much?

Well, I see this OT passage supports the OP

Isaiah 53:3-12 "He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed."

I see that passage is the fate of the Messengers, they take on all the suffering of humanity.

Regards Tony

Awesome!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No it was not. It was an exercise in apologetics and glorifications of the prophets as understood from the Bahai perspective.
Here are the first lines of the OP

"I see all the Messengers of God have had to suffer greatly. This OP is about all the Messengers and Prophets that have come from God.

I see their suffering was for us and our neglect of their Messages brings great sadness upon all humanity. They accepted all that suffering, and still do, so we can be released from our chains and bondage to this world."

Also offered was,

So what are your thoughts? Can you imagine any greater suffering than what the Prophets and Messengers have faced?

What are your thoughts?

Regards Tony

 

[sayak83]

Also offered was,

So what are your thoughts? Can you imagine any greater suffering than what the Prophets and Messengers have faced?

What are your thoughts?

Regards Tony

Yes obviously. Tens of posters have posted many many many instances of this already in their reply.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm not expecting you to believe that. Frankly, I wish I wasn't in this position of saying things I know people won't believe because Tony started this thread. He was trying to prove that Manifestations are who they say they are, and naturally this invites debate and criticism and I am just trying to show that it is possible to have this opinion. I'm limiting the damage as best I can. I don't like debate. I prefer to have common ground.

As this thread has gone along I have also been drawn into debate, which I don't like.

I empathize, but also maintain that you didn't need to enter the debate at all. Nobody is forcing you.

 

[Vinayaka]

We are entitled to our opinion. I do not seek to impose that opinion on you or any other Hindu. Let unity in diversity prevail.

In the one main article in the Baha'i library, Moomen (sp?) the so called Baha'i scholar said that the main purpose for Baha'i interaction with Hindu was to help us overcome our outdated theology, to modernise us, which of course is disguised proselytising. Sure, this may not be true for you personally, but some Baha'is certainly think of it. If you would like to see less of that sort of thing, your argument should be with other Baha'is, as they're not working towards unity in diversity by starting out hurling insults at other religions. Best wishes.

 

[Vinayaka]

The purpose is to think deeply about what is suffering and how do we cope with suffering?

Plain and simple.

Regards Tony

And many have, and concluded that the 'manifestations' didn't suffer nearly as much as average humans on this planet stuck in circumstances or war or famine.

 

[Vinayaka]

It's slander to say that Baha'u'llah was bigoted. What evidence do you have that Baha'u'llah was bigoted towards homosexuals? Just that Baha'is shouldn't have homosexual sex. That is not saying that homosexuals are morally depraved because they have an attraction towards people of the same gender. This has been repeatedly explained and yet you persist in saying this despite all reason. What you say is not proven to any reasonable person, and I believe you know that.

So now you're saying all the non-Baha'i who agree with this are just plain unreasonable?

 

[Revoltingest]

What I'm trying to say I wish this thread was never started. I was trying not to offend Tony.

Good.
Cuz I'm the one here who should offend him.
He's not easy to rile though.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Good.
Cuz I'm the one here who should offend him.
He's not easy to rile though.

Don’t forget to add me to your list of those who are awaiting your chastisement! Lol

 

[Revoltingest]

Don’t forget to add me to your list of those who are awaiting your chastisement! Lol

I'm making a list.
I'm checking it thrice.
I'm gonna keep track
Who I'll slice & dice.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I personally think that Baha’is suffer deep down tremendously even though basically joyous and happy beings.

We suffer deeply seeing humanity needlessly suffer under oppression and tyranny and we know what the solution is but we are too few in number to really help so we desperately try and give birth to a world consciousness that will supersede national boundaries so that people can be helped.

Ukraine, Syria, Iran, Myanmar do not really exist. What really and truly is the reality is that millions of ‘fellow humans’ are cruelly treated and massacred and the only thing that stands in the way of the world taking action against hardened war criminals is nationalism and the lack of unity.

People in these countries are being oppressed and massacred and crying to the world community for justice but all they get is a stern word if at all and their plight continues.

Baha’is call for world unity is to help these people. Dictators love the UN veto system as any ally can veto any action. We Baha’is are not better than anyone but for help to rescue these people unity is required in our world. They are killing women and kids in Iran. Where is the world community? Ukraine - so much suffering where is the world community only talk? Myanmar - my wife cries daily as she hears from her family of daily atrocities where just where is the world community who can unitedly put an end to these injustices?

Baha’u’llah’s suffering must have been worse knowing that as a result of rejection of His call to unite, world wars would occur killing millions.

So we Baha’is are forever perseveringly calling for world unity, to recognise we are all the family of humanity and if a family member is suffering and in great distress to rush to their help. Instead their please for help and justice are completely ignored to the delight of their torturers. Is this the world we want? Or is it that the life of a Burmese or Syrian or Iranian or Ukrainian doesn’t mean all that much to us? For God’s sake they are our human family so somehow, someway we have to keep trying to help them or we don’t deserve to be called human.

A Baha’i suffers greatly seeing these things and begs God that humanity will get together and establish a just order where oppressors cannot rule.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm making a list.
I'm checking it thrice.
I'm gonna keep track
Who I'll slice & dice.

An early Christmas present! Wow!