None have Suffered More

[TransmutingSoul]

So, if he began it 6000 years ago, he would have had to exist 6000 years ago? But... of course, if taken literally. But do Baha'is believe Adam really existed 6000 years ago? If not, why believe he started a prophetic cycle 6000 years ago? But then if he did exist then, what did he do? Which religion did he start 6000 years ago? Did he live to be over 900 years old? If not, then the story is fictional. So, what is it? It's a chopped-up mess, that Baha'is will probably ignore, because there is no good explanation.

Civilizations have cone and gone. Humanity is ancient. It appears our religious records go back about that amount of time.

It is for all of us to sort out. The Kitab-i-iqan does just that, gives us a great starting point to understand the diversity of Faiths.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Allegorical priests / symbolic priests, not real priests. The verse from Psalm 110 *actually* says "by the decree" of Malchi-Tzedek. So the messengers need to be *actually* ordained by malchi-tzedek for that apply. And finally, Baha'u'llah speaks negatively about clergy, blames them for corrupting all religion everywhere.

It's a lose-lose-lose argument, Tony.

I am seeing it is a sound and strong argument. I thank Baha'u'llah for uncovering such wonders of Faith, which I would have never otherwise considered.

From Wiki, who I must add are looking for donations again.

"In the Bible, Melchizedek (/mɛlˈkɪzədɛk/,[1] Biblical Hebrew: מַלְכִּי־צֶדֶק‎, romanized: malkī-ṣeḏeq, "king of righteousness" or "my king is righteousness"), also transliterated
Melchisedech or Malki Tzedek, was the king of Salem and priest of El Elyon (often translated as "most high God").

This is a very mysterious person and after a short reflection, it Appears this is reflected in Baha'u'llah (Glory of God)

Salem meaning in Hebrew "Peaceful, safe; Complete, perfect"

For Christianity it appears Salem is, “king of peace.”

The verses.

Genisis14:18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

So Melchizedek, the king of righteousness, the king of peace, a priest of the most high God.

Could this moment be the awakening of the people towards Abramam, as Melchizedek, the king of righteousness, the king of peace, a priest of the most high God brought forth the bread and wine blessed Abraham who likewise was from the Most High God.

Much like the visions of Muhammad and Baha'u'llah when they were given their Mission to give God's Message.

Interesting, Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Great, but then Baha'is have come with yet another religion, with its beliefs, laws and claims of a prophet that has been sent by an invisible, unknowable God.

The Baha'i did not "come with yet another religion".

That is the Station of Baha'u'llah, who was given the task and gave a Message from God.

Baha'is have only accepted that it is from God.

You have the same choices we are also given

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oneness? Fine. We need peace? Yes. We need unity? Of course. People need to believe in God and the Baha'i Faith to achieve it? What? Why? How do you know it's true? How do you know God is real and spoke to this guy of yours?

One look at the world today, compared to what Baha'u'llah offered to humanity and what would result from the rejection of that offer, is the greatest proof any Messengers could hope for.

To me, there are truckloads of clarity. I do not know why I see thay clarity and yiu are not able to? Maybe that is my test, thinking I have some clarity? Yet then I read that there has never been a Message so openly proclaimed, and I do conclude that clarity is to be found.

So in the "Summons of the Lord of Hosts" the introduction says this.

"...He summoned the monarchs of East and West collectively, and some among them individually, to recognize the Day of God and to acknowledge the One promised in the scriptures of the religions professed by the recipients of His summons. “Never since the beginning of the world”, Bahá’u’lláh declares, “hath the Message been so openly proclaimed.”..."

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

The above link is to that proclamation, truly amazing really, as a prisoner addressing all the rulers of the world, all the priests all the people.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Neglected" I can't post it all. And what does that mean? I think it makes it worse. The writers were telling a story taken from their oral traditions. How accurate were they?

The 3 quotes together are complimentary.

Excerpts from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá

"Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qur'an both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed."

('The Kitab-i-Iqan", page 20)

"...the Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses)."

(From a recently translated Tablet of Bahá'u'lláh)

"Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him."

So Abdul'baha confirms the words given to Moses in the Torah are the Exact words as Baha'u'llah offered and that "the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses"

And it is "the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses that both Abdul'baha and Shoghi have explained more about.

Also Baha'u'llah has offered it was he was the tongue that conversed with Moses through the Burning Bush, so is also saying what is recorded in the Torah, from Me is accurate.

What better source to acknowledge what was said, than the one that Spoke those words?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But... is that unity in diversity? No, it is the Baha'i interpretations of the other religions is what is true. And no problem is the Baha'i Faith is actually the truth. But how do we know that for sure? Unless we ask questions. And ask for claims to be verified.

I see unity in our diversity revolves around the Oneness of God.

The Diversity is manifested from that Oneness.



The Light entering represents the Oneness of God.

The Prisim is the Messengers on to which we can write all the Names and Attributes of God, they are the source of our diversity.

The rays are our diversity, founded from that Oneness. We all see it in a different way, we all have valid points of reference and many points of disagreement, those disagreements I see are built in our diversity. They do not need to be the cause of turning away from the source of the light.

I could think about that over and over and in many ways. Yet that diversity of thought is all directed towards Oneness.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I see unity in our diversity revolves around the Oneness of God.

The Diversity is manifested from that Oneness.

View attachment 69464

The Light entering represents the Oneness of God.

The Prisim is the Messengers on to which we can write all the Names and Attributes of God, they are the source of our diversity.

The rays are our diversity, founded from that Oneness. We all see it in a different way, we all have valid points of reference and many points of disagreement, those disagreements I see are built in our diversity. They do not need to be the cause of turning away from the source of the light.

I could think about that over and over and in many ways. Yet that diversity of thought is all directed towards Oneness.

Regards Tony

We're talking about between people with different beliefs. I don't think too many people would have a problem with the beliefs that all people are one and that we all live on one planet and have to find a way to share it without resorting to killing each other or allowing some to exploit people and the planet for their benefit. So, one of the big obstacles is the differing religious beliefs. Will Baha'is compromise their beliefs for the sake of peace and unity? If not, why expect people in the other religions to do it?

But that's the thing, I think Baha'is do expect them to compromise their beliefs, because Baha'is think those beliefs aren't totally correct. The true and correct beliefs are what Baha'u'llah has brought. So again, the unity depends on them, with their diverse beliefs, letting go of them and believing what the Baha'i Faith teaches.

 

[dybmh]

I think that @dybmh understands.
#766 Trailblazer, 10 minutes ago

Thank you! I missed that post last night.

 

[Truthseeker]

Advocating diversity of religion would be:

Your religion ( or lack there of ) is good for you, you don't need to change. Let me protect your practices, your rules, your customs as valid even if they disagree with mine or others. Polytheists, and rejecters included.

They don't need to change, according to Baha'i. We don't expect them to change. We won't interfere with their practicies. We will protect their practices, even if we disagree.

 

[Truthseeker]

You are correct in saying that Baha'u'llah wanted religious diversity to cease. I really don't like it when other Baha'is try to gloss that over, because it is dishonest. It is kind of embarrassing when a Jewish man has to correct Baha'is about their own religion, but thanks for pointing that out.

The following are the exact words of Baha'u'llah that were spoken in an interview granted to the English orientalist, Edward Browne. The interview which took place in the vicinity of Haifa, Israel in April, 1890.

“We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?… Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come…. Yet do We see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family…. Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. ix

Furthermore, Baha'u'llah wrote that God has ordained that the remedy for healing the world is to unite all the peoples of the world into one common Faith. If God has ordained this it must come to pass eventually.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

The Unity in Diversity that Abdu'l-Baha talked about is a whole different subject. He was saying we should be united in spite of our diversity. He was referring to all kinds of diversity, diversity of race, creed, color, not just religious diversity.

“Do not allow difference of opinion, or diversity of thought to separate you from your fellow-men, or to be the cause of dispute, hatred and strife in your hearts.

Rather, search diligently for the truth and make all men your friends.

Every edifice is made of many different stones, yet each depends on the other to such an extent that if one were displaced the whole building would suffer; if one is faulty the structure is imperfect.

Bahá’u’lláh has drawn the circle of unity, He has made a design for the uniting of all the peoples, and for the gathering of them all under the shelter of the tent of universal unity. This is the work of the Divine Bounty, and we must all strive with heart and soul until we have the reality of unity in our midst, and as we work, so will strength be given unto us. Leave all thought of self, and strive only to be obedient and submissive to the Will of God. In this way only shall we become citizens of the Kingdom of God, and attain unto life everlasting.” Paris Talks, pp. 53-54

Read more: Unity in Diversity

Not sure what you are saying here. It seems you are talking about unity in religious diversity and unity without diversity at the same time. I suggest that unity in religious diversity is anywhere remotely in the near future, and a universal ceasing of diversity is in the far future. Practically speaking, the former is our world. Maybe you are not saying what I think you are saying.

A any rate, anytime in the Baha'i Dispensation is unity in religious diversity, because different religions than Baha'i will exist in that time.

Q. Will all people become Bahá’ís in the future?

A. There is no reference in the writings stating that every single person will become Bahá’í, but at least half of them will. Rúḥíyyih Khánum used to say that Shoghi Effendi was asked this question quite often by pilgrims. He would answer by saying that, in this Dispensation, the totality of the peoples of the world will not become Bahá’ís, but the majority will.
‘Alí Nakhjavani, "Shoghi Effendi: The Range and Power of His Pen"
https://bahai-library.com/link/XBtzA/nakhjavani_range_power_pen

 

[TransmutingSoul]

They don't need to change, according to Baha'i. We don't expect them to change. We won't interfere with their practicies. We will protect their practices, even if we disagree.

I think we all need to change.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Civilizations have cone and gone. Humanity is ancient. It appears our religious records go back about that amount of time.

It is for all of us to sort out. The Kitab-i-iqan does just that, gives us a great starting point to understand the diversity of Faiths.

Regards Tony

Well, there's what Baha'u'llah says about ancient religions and what anthropologists and other researchers have found. How does the religious beliefs of the Sumerians fit in with the Baha'i Faith?

Before the beginning of kingship in Sumer, the city-states were effectively ruled by theocratic priests and religious officials. Later, this role was supplanted by kings, but priests continued to exert great influence on Sumerian society. In early times, Sumerian temples were simple, one-room structures, sometimes built on elevated platforms. Towards the end of Sumerian civilization, these temples developed into ziggurats—tall, pyramidal structures with sanctuaries at the tops.

The Sumerians believed that the universe had come into being through a series of cosmic births. First, Nammu, the primeval waters, gave birth to Ki (the earth) and An (the sky), who mated together and produced a son named Enlil. Enlil separated heaven from earth and claimed the earth as his domain. Humans were believed to have been created by Enki, the son of Nammu and An. Heaven was reserved exclusively for deities and, upon their deaths, all mortals' spirits, regardless of their behavior while alive, were believed to go to Kur, a cold, dark cavern deep beneath the earth, which was ruled by the goddess Ereshkigal and where the only food available was dry dust. In later times, Ereshkigal was believed to rule alongside her husband Nergal, the god of death.

The major deities in the Sumerian pantheon included An, the god of the heavens, Enlil, the god of wind and storm, Enki, the god of water and human culture, Ninhursag, the goddess of fertility and the earth, Utu, the god of the sun and justice, and his father Nanna, the god of the moon. During the Akkadian Empire, Inanna, the goddess of sex, beauty, and warfare, was widely venerated across Sumer and appeared in many myths, including the famous story of her descent into the Underworld.

Sumerian religion heavily influenced the religious beliefs of later Mesopotamian peoples; elements of it are retained in the mythologies and religions of the Hurrians, Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, and other Middle Eastern culture groups. Scholars of comparative mythology have noticed parallels between the stories of the ancient Sumerians and those recorded later in the early parts of the Hebrew Bible.​

 

[Trailblazer]

Not sure what you are saying here. It seems you are talking about unity in religious diversity and unity without diversity at the same time. I suggest that unity in religious diversity is anywhere remotely in the near future, and a universal ceasing of diversity is in the far future. Practically speaking, the former is our world. Maybe you are not saying what I think you are saying.

A any rate, anytime in the Baha'i Dispensation is unity in religious diversity, because different religions than Baha'i will exist in that time.

I was not talking about what exists, or what will exist in the near future, I was talking about what Baha'u'llah desired, what He hoped for.

“We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?… Yet so it shall be; ….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. ix

Moreover, 150 years ago, Baha'u'llah was not a happy camper that His Faith had been rejected, so what would He be thinking now?

We know that "his Faith" is the Baha'i Faith, not the older religious Faiths, since the passage says "they have ignored His Presence in His day" and "them that have rejected His signs." -- in This Day, the Day of God.

“We perceive none, however, amongst the people of the earth who, sincerely yearning for the Truth, seeketh the guidance of the divine Manifestations concerning the abstruse matters of his Faith. All are dwellers in the land of oblivion, and all are followers of the people of wickedness and rebellion. God will verily do unto them that which they themselves are doing, and will forget them even as they have ignored His Presence in His day. Such is His decree unto those that have denied Him, and such will it be unto them that have rejected His signs.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp.256-257

 

[TransmutingSoul]

God will verily do unto them that which they themselves are doing, and will forget them even as they have ignored His Presence in His day. Such is His decree unto those that have denied Him, and such will it be unto them that have rejected His signs.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp.256-257

That is what we all face, our own choices.

We war against each other, have predudices, break laws and have laxity of morals, that is the punishment of the Judgement against the standards which are set by God.

Forgetting us, is leaving us unto our own selves, it is self inflicted ignorance. Yet it all happens for a reason, it is part of the major plan to assist us to find our unity.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, there's what Baha'u'llah says about ancient religions and what anthropologists and other researchers have found. How does the religious beliefs of the Sumerians fit in with the Baha'i Faith?

It was around 1500 years before it was recorded CG.

Yet there was a King of Kings, which others branched from.

Anu - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Could this moment be the awakening of the people towards Abramam, as Melchizedek, the king of righteousness, the king of peace, a priest of the most high God brought forth the bread and wine blessed Abraham who likewise was from the Most High God.

Okay, then continue with the Abraham story and why you believe him to be a manifestation? Number one question... What religion and book did he bring?

Then if you say that it is because God spoke to him, then why not make all the people that God supposedly talked to manifestations?

It is only in certain of the very early passages of legend that God spoke to people directly. The Yahwist (J) source, who always used 'YHWH' as the name for God, portrayed him as anthropomorphic, with human characteristics.

The Yahwist account of Adam and Eve has God walking in the Garden of Eden "in the cool of the day" (Genesis 3:8) and talking man-to-man with his creation, Adam. He also spoke to Cain after the murder of Abel. God also spoke directly with Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...

The Book of Job says that God spoke angrily to Job when Satan had been unable to have him curse God, demanding of Job whether he considered himself equal to God.
​

But why take any of those stories literally? And since Baha'is do believe many of the Bible stories should be taken symbolically, then why not these... including God talking to Abraham. So, do symbolic stories and possibly mythical characters need to be made into very real and historical manifestations of God?

I know Baha'is can't say that he wasn't real and a manifestation, but how do Baha'is support that belief using the accounts found in the Bible. And if Baha'is use the Quran and Baha'i stories about Abraham, what are they?

 

[CG Didymus]

One look at the world today, compared to what Baha'u'llah offered to humanity and what would result from the rejection of that offer, is the greatest proof any Messengers could hope for.

To me, there are truckloads of clarity. I do not know why I see thay clarity and yiu are not able to? Maybe that is my test, thinking I have some clarity? Yet then I read that there has never been a Message so openly proclaimed, and I do conclude that clarity is to be found.

So in the "Summons of the Lord of Hosts" the introduction says this.

"...He summoned the monarchs of East and West collectively, and some among them individually, to recognize the Day of God and to acknowledge the One promised in the scriptures of the religions professed by the recipients of His summons. “Never since the beginning of the world”, Bahá’u’lláh declares, “hath the Message been so openly proclaimed.”..."

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

The above link is to that proclamation, truly amazing really, as a prisoner addressing all the rulers of the world, all the priests all the people.

Regards Tony

There again we have two conflicting messages, and that's just comparing the Baha'i Faith with Christianity. In Revelation, the Christ returns and destroys the kings and sets up his kingdom. The Baha'i Faith, he comes and writes them a letter and gets rejected. And his message is still not heeded a 150 plus years later. That's why, if the NT and the book of Revelation is somewhat true and accurate, the tribulation happens before Christ returns.

So, I agree, it looks like the world is heading towards disaster. But either one can be right, the Baha'is or the Christians. If the old-world crumbles and everyone turns to the Baha'i Faith, then things are looking good for the Baha'is to be right. However, if things go bad and then Jesus returns, which is how Christians interpret things will happen, then it looks like they had it right. But I don't see how Baha'is can flop around the tribulation to after the return of the Christ. What's your explanation and interpretation of that?

 

[CG Didymus]

I think we all need to change.

Regards Tony

Plus, it doesn't account for false religions and cults. Some of them are dangerous and probably should not be tolerated. But then... even mainstream, accepted religions can have false beliefs. Protestants and Catholics don't believe the same things. Both disagree with Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. If the Baha'is are right, then all of them are wrong and following things that aren't true or at best, just outdated. Then we have the problem of those other religions thinking the Baha'i Faith is the one that is false.

 

[CG Didymus]

It was around 1500 years before it was recorded CG.

Yet there was a King of Kings, which others branched from.

Anu - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

He's the sky God had a wife and children? Why not call it myth, rather than trying to say it is still the one true God. It seems very likely they were making things up.

To fit correctly, they would have needed a manifestation that told them about one God that had no other gods, had no wife and had no children.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, then continue with the Abraham story and why you believe him to be a manifestation?

Baha'u'llah told us he was. There is many more that were not mentioned, in the writings. Thus I am in need of no further proof. Others may need more detail?

Regards Tony