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The quandary of faith and choice CG, that will always be our lot in life.
Regards Tony
The quandary of faith and choice CG, that will always be our lot in life.
Regards Tony
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Do Jews, Christians and Muslims believe Abraham to be a manifestation? If not, they why suddenly make him one? If they do, what are the verses in the Bible, NT, and Quran that support that belief?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
“Among the Prophets was Abraham, the Friend of God. Ere He manifested Himself, Nimrod dreamed a dream. Thereupon, he summoned the soothsayers, who informed him of the rise of a star in the heaven. Likewise, there appeared a herald who announced throughout the land the coming of Abraham.
After Him came Moses, He Who held converse with God.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 62-63
What do you think this means, if everyone already knows?
"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
So Jesus Christ had much more to tell us, and then also a bingo moment that answers your question about the timing of the Messiah, "...he will tell you what is yet to come.."
Quran Prophets
1. Adam as (Adam)آدم
2. Idris as (Enoch) إدر يس
3. Noah as (Nuh) نوح
4. Hud as (Hud) هود
5. Shaleh as (Saleh) صالح
6. Ibrahim as (Abraham) إبراهيم
7. Lut as (Lot) لوط
8. Ismail as (Ishmael) إسماعيل
9. Ishaq as (Issac) إسحاق
10. Yaqub as (Jacob) يعقوب
11. Yusuf as (Joseph) يوسف
12. Ayyub as (Job) أيوب
13. Shu’aib as (Jethro) شعيب
14. Musa as (Moses) موسى
15. Harun as (Aaron)هارون
16. Dzulkifli as (Ezekiel) ذو الكفل
17. Dawud as (David) داود
18. Sulaiman as (Soloman) سليمان
19. Ilyas as (Elijah) إلياس
20. Alyas’a as (Elisha) اليسع
21. Yunus as (Jonah) يونس
22. Zakaria as (Zachariah) زكريا
23. Yahya as (John) يحيى
24. Isa as (Jesus) عيسى
25. Muhammad saw محمد
Regards Tony
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
And is that what I asked? No. That's a lot of prophets, but where in the Quran, the Bible and the NT does it say that Abraham was a manifestation? And to quote Baha'i writings isn't what I asked either. And who are Hud and Saleh? Where in the Bible, or other Scriptures are they mentioned?
Have a look at what Christians think CG.
Great Tribulation - Wikipedia
If the do not really know, then the Event has indeed settled it for all Time. Now we can read scriptures knowing God forewarn us.
Baha'u'llah appeared at the dawn of our decadence, in Persia that had totally forgotten our One God. Baha'u'llah then delivered the Message God wanted all Humanity to hear and act upon.
So far we have 179 years of History since the the Day of God started unfolding on May 23rd 1844.
What now faces us is the consequences of that prolonged rejection of God's guidance.
Regards Tony
It was the most helpful reply I could give to your quandaries, that I saw in the moment. Yes it answers those quandaries.
I do have Covid-19, so attention span even shorter than normal.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
And I have some verses for you. What do these mean?
Genesis17:19 Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac...
Then this one...
Genesis 22:2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering
As far as your question goes, I don't think it is a Messianic prophecy, but a prophecy about the Holy Spirit descending on Pentecost.
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Acts 1:1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
I understand that Baha'is would like everything their religion teaches to be true, and I know that for Baha'is, the answers given in the Baha'i writings satisfies them. But they don't quite fit with what the Bible and the NT says. So, do Baha'is believe in the Bible and the NT? No, they believe in the Baha'i interpretation of them. Which gives us four manifestations out of the Jewish religion, Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses. Which gives us Ishmael instead of Isaac. Which gives us Baha'u'llah as the Spirit of Truth and not the Holy Spirit. And it makes Jesus physically dead and having never resurrected. Just a slight difference between Judaism and Christianity.Acts 1:1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Well then take care of yourself and get better. I'll probably still be here, no rush.It was the most helpful reply I could give to you quandaries, that I saw in the moment. Yes it answers those quandaries.
I do have Covid-19, so attention span even shorter than normal.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I understand that Christians would like everything their religion teaches to be true, and I know that for Christians, the answers given in the Bible satisfies them. But they don't quite fit with what the Baha'i Writings say.
If people do not embrace the Explanations of the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdul'Baha and Shoghi Effendi, what would be the benefit of giving my extremely limit interpretations?
I have tried, only to be met with the same kind of responses. I now see that that is obviously not the path to our unity.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I'm not asking for your interpretation. I'm asking what verses in the Bible and NT and the Quran support the Baha'i belief that Abraham was a manifestation. The belief must be based on something. What is it? But don't kill yourself over it. Take a break and rest up.
They were known as Prophets until Baha'u'llah introduced 'Manifestation of God'.
Maybe that is a good hint as to why people see some past Prophets as God.
Baha'u'llah also explained that they all come with a different intenensity of light as decreed by God. Much like the sun changing on the horizon during the 4 seasons.
This Message likewise is corresponding to the peak of Sumner.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I can tell you that the belief that Abraham was a manifestation of God is not based upon any verses in the Bible or the Quran.
It is based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote in The Kitab-i-Iqan, what I quoted to you earlier today.
The Bible did hint about it, well that's a personal interpretation.
1 Corinthians 12 does describe the Manifestation.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;"
1 Timothy 3:16 "Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory."
John 14:21
“Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is true that the Bible does say God was manifest, but that was referring to Jesus, not to Abraham.The Bible did hint about it, well that's a personal interpretation.
1 Corinthians 12 does describe the Manifestation.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;"
1 Timothy 3:16 "Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory."
John 14:21
“Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
This is what I said...
And here's some of what your link says...
In the futurist view of Christian eschatology, the Great Tribulation is a relatively short period of time where everyone will experience worldwide hardships, persecution, disasters, famine, war, pain, and suffering, which will affect all of creation, and precede judgment of all when the Second Coming takes place...
Among Futurists there are differing views about what will happen to Christians during the Tribulation:
Christian preterists believe that the Tribulation was a divine judgment visited upon the Jews for their sins, including rejection of Jesus as the promised Messiah. It occurred entirely in the past, around AD 70 when the armed forces of the Roman Empire destroyed Jerusalem and its temple.
A preterist discussion of the Tribulation has its focus on the Gospels, in particular the prophetic passages in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, rather than on the Apocalypse or Book of Revelation. (Preterists apply much of the symbolism in the Revelation to Rome, the Cæsars, and their persecution of Christians, rather than to the Tribulation upon the Jews.)
Here's more on preterists...Among Futurists there are differing views about what will happen to Christians during the Tribulation:
- Pretribulationists believe that all righteous Christians (deceased and living) will be taken bodily up to Heaven (called the rapture) before the Tribulation begins.[14] According to this belief, every true Christian that has ever existed throughout the course of the entire Christian era will be instantaneously transformed into a perfect resurrected body, and will thus escape the trials of the Tribulation. Those who become Christians after the rapture will live through (or perish during) the Tribulation. After the Tribulation, Christ will return to establish his Millennial Kingdom.
- Prewrath Tribulationists believe the rapture will occur during the Tribulation, halfway through or after, but before the seven bowls of the wrath of God.
- Midtribulationists believe that the rapture will occur halfway through the Tribulation, but before the worst part of it occurs. The seven-year period is divided into halves—the "beginning of sorrows" and the "Great Tribulation".
- Posttribulationists believe that Christians will not be taken up into Heaven for eternity, but will be received or gathered in the air by Christ, to descend together to establish the Kingdom of God on earth at the end of the Tribulation.
Christian preterists believe that the Tribulation was a divine judgment visited upon the Jews for their sins, including rejection of Jesus as the promised Messiah. It occurred entirely in the past, around AD 70 when the armed forces of the Roman Empire destroyed Jerusalem and its temple.
A preterist discussion of the Tribulation has its focus on the Gospels, in particular the prophetic passages in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, rather than on the Apocalypse or Book of Revelation. (Preterists apply much of the symbolism in the Revelation to Rome, the Cæsars, and their persecution of Christians, rather than to the Tribulation upon the Jews.)
Preterism is a Biblical theory that contends all (or most) Bible prophecy including those of the Last Days, has already been fulfilled. Yes, including the book of Revelation.
Preterists believe all Bible prophecy concluded in 70 A.D. when Jerusalem fell to Roman General Titus. They believe Jesus returned at that date. They believe the Antichrist appeared long ago, and the Great Tribulation has long since passed.
How does any of that help support the Baha'i Faith beliefs? You still need prophecies that say the end-time Messiah will come, get rejected, get exiled and imprisoned, die and then the world goes into hard times and tribulations. If you don't got it, fine. I understand that it doesn't matter to Baha'is. But it would be nice if Baha'is could better support some of their claims.Preterists believe all Bible prophecy concluded in 70 A.D. when Jerusalem fell to Roman General Titus. They believe Jesus returned at that date. They believe the Antichrist appeared long ago, and the Great Tribulation has long since passed.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
That's why I'm questioning it. To me, it could very well be a made-up belief to tie in the different religions with the Baha'i concept of progressive revelation. But... if the concept is real and is the why the one true God did things, why not make it clear... "This man is a manifestation. He is bringing you the truth about me, the one true God." And then say, "These other guys are prophets. They aren't the same as a manifestation." And then make it clear how each is defined.
But what we do have are religions that believe in many Gods and some of those Gods can incarnate into human bodies. We have a man that became enlightened and taught how others could become enlightened like he was. And then we have Judaism... a long story that goes from the creation of the world to the present. Within their story they had several prophets. One stood out a little more, Moses, the lawgiver. But is there any place in the Bible that makes him so special as to be a manifestation?
Then there is Jesus. He fits the Baha'i definition very well. But who else? Muhammad? Did Muhammad see himself as a manifestation of God? Do Muslims see him that way?
If that is what these people were, all I'm saying is that it wouldn't have been that difficult for each of them to say so and establish that "yes" manifestations of God are true and that God uses them, and only them, to tell humans about God. But I think it's just a Baha'i concept. It works for you. You take it on faith. I need to see some support for your claims that all these people were all this special creation called, "manifestations".
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I think that is describing the "gifts" of the spirit. Something that any believer could be given.
The point was, that no Christian could know the day and the Hour, only the signs.
It supports the Bab and Baha'u'llah as they were the fulfillment and only God knew of that time.
Baha'u'llah has also offered that an event will come suddenly upon us and further writings by Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi offer that overnight the world will change, our cities will lay in ruin, the Northen Hemisphere will be the most effected. We too have been given the signs, but the timing is unknown.
"Know thou that hardship and privation shall increase day by day, and the people shall thereby be afflicted. The doors of joy and happiness shall be closed on all sides, and terrible wars shall occur. Frustration and despair shall encompass the people until they are forced to turn to the One True God. Then will the light of most joyful tidings so illumine the horizons that the cry of 'Yá Bahá’u’l Bahá' will be raised from every direction. This shall come to pass." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Lights of Guidance, p. 130
The great Varqa who felt honoured to have met Baha’u’llah on several occasions wrote about once asking Baha’u’llah “how will the Cause of God be universally adopted by mankind?”
"Baha’u’llah said that first, the nations of the world would arm themselves with infernal engines of war, and when fully armed would attack each other like bloodthirsty beasts. As a result, there would be enormous bloodshed throughout the world. Then the wise from all nations would gather together to investigate the cause of such bloodshed. They would come to the conclusion that prejudices were the cause, a major form being religious prejudice. They would therefore try to eliminate religion so as to eliminate prejudice. Later they would realize that man cannot live without religion. Then they would study the teachings of all religions to see which of the religions conformed to the prevailing conditions of the time. It is then that the Cause of God would become universal." The Revelation of Baha’u’llah Vol. 4, p. 56
Regards Tony