None have Suffered More

[Trailblazer]

Wait, Abdu'l-Baha did say this, and so did Shoghi Effendi. I don't want to fight about this, but do you know for sure that Baha'u'llah in all of His untranslated Writings didn't say Buddha was a Messenger of God? We have differing opinions on the limits of the authority of Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi I know, and I won't debate that now. Unity in diversity.

Just so our viewers will know, the following is what Abdu'l-Baha said about Buddha (emphasis mine). If you know of any other quotes please point them out.

Question.—To which category do Buddha and Confucius belong?

Answer.—Buddha also established a new religion, and Confucius renewed morals and ancient virtues, but their institutions have been entirely destroyed. The beliefs and rites of the Buddhists and Confucianists have not continued in accordance with their fundamental teachings. The founder of Buddhism was a wonderful soul. He established the Oneness of God, but later the original principles of His doctrines gradually disappeared, and ignorant customs and ceremonials arose and increased until they finally ended in the worship of statues and images.
Some Answered Questions, p. 165

From: 43: THE TWO CLASSES OF PROPHETS

So how did we go from Point A (a wonderful soul who established the Oneness of God) to Point B (a Messenger of God or a Manifestation of God)? I mean how did the Buddha become a Messenger of God or a Manifestation of God? That is the hundred-dollar question nobody seems to have the answer to.

Not that it really matters, as people's differing understandings of the Baha'i Writings has no bearing upon whether Baha'u'llah was actually a Manifestation of God or not, which is all that really matters. If people like @CG Didymus have to tie up all the loose ends then they will never become Baha'is, because there are a lot of loose ends.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who said they are not, prayers are not always answered according to our expectations.

Of course not. Who ever said they were?

Suffering becomes a result of our expectations.

Like I pray for Peace, peace will not happen according to my expectations, so I suffer great sadness and turmoil.

But when I pray for peace, and may God's Will be done, then I find peace in that Will and not mine.

Some suffering might be the result of God's answer not living to our expectations, but certainly not all suffering is the result of that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Threads like this are successful. But not for uniting people and getting them to accept the Baha'i teachings, but by pushing people away. Whether Baha'is realize it or not, you're leaving people with only one correct option... that the Baha'i Faith is the truth. And that option is going to get rejected more often than not.

Who cares if it is rejected? Getting people to accept the Baha'i Faith is not the purpose of threads like this.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

So what is the point of this thread? **** off a large swathe of people with a calloused and self-indulgent comment?

I'm also just going to assume that none of you can justify the very glaring offense at the claim.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, we cannot know how they experienced their suffering, all we have is what they said, if they said anything.
All suffering is subjective so I don't think we can say who has suffered more.
Who is to say that they had empathy, how can we know they did?

They are the embodiment of all virtues.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So what is the point of this thread? **** off a large swathe of people with a calloused and self-indulgent comment?

I'm also just going to assume that none of you can justify the very glaring offense at the claim.

The purpose is to think deeply about what is suffering and how do we cope with suffering?

Plain and simple.

Regards Tony

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Cool.

I'm going to say that conceivable suffering tops at the Holocaust, and your prophets don't even register on the scale just because they're sad about the world and stuff. Start a blog.

 

[soulsurvivor]

So what are your thoughts? Can you imagine any greater suffering than what the Prophets and Messengers have faced?

Maybe I am ill-informed. Did Prophet Muhammad 'suffer' in any way?

 

[Trailblazer]

So what is the point of this thread?

I would not know, since I am not the one who posted this thread.

**** off a large swathe of people with a calloused and self-indulgent comment?

I have no idea what you are referring to as self-indulgent. This thread is not about self. It is about Prophets and their suffering.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

It is about Prophets and their suffering.

Exactly, their self-indulgent ego. Oh how they suffer, greater than anyone else in all of history, for reasons hitherto unclearly elaborated upon.

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly, their self-indulgent ego. Oh how they suffer, greater than anyone else in all of history, for reasons hitherto unclearly elaborated upon.

It is hardly their ego, since they are not the ones who claimed to have 'suffered greater' than anyone else in all of history.
Baha'u'llah said he had "borne that which no other person hath borne or will bear" but that is not the same as saying He has suffered more than any person in history.

 

[Truthseeker]

Yes. It was a fair assessment.
It is basically the same thing as saying a billionaire's suffering for 1 hour in summer heat is more than that of an ordinary laborer doing backbreaking work day in and day out in the same heat because the former has never spent a moment away from the AC while the latter, poor soul, is used to it.
What a morally repugnant argument.

No need to phrase what you said so repugnantly. I'm not being repugnant to you. Please reciprocate.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Then 'tis the OP's overblown measure of what your prophets have endured.

 

[Truthseeker]

It is an interesting question, but Tony was positively concluding that Buddha did suffer worse than ordinary humans according to my understanding, so you appear to be backing away from justifying that conclusion here.

In my opinion

Yes, and Baha'is are not monolithic in how we respond,or in our opinions either. We believe in unity in diversity.

 

[Trailblazer]

No need to phrase what you said so repugnantly. I'm not being repugnant to you. Please reciprocate.

My, my. How people misinterpret things that are posted. How did the Manifestations become cry babies?

 

[Trailblazer]

Then 'tis the OP's overblown measure of what your prophets have endured.

That is no doubt true. It was overblown.

 

[Truthseeker]

Just because somebody stated something doesn't make it true. You're free to believe it, but most people wouldn't.

I'm not expecting you to believe that. Frankly, I wish I wasn't in this position of saying things I know people won't believe because Tony started this thread. He was trying to prove that Manifestations are who they say they are, and naturally this invites debate and criticism and I am just trying to show that it is possible to have this opinion. I'm limiting the damage as best I can. I don't like debate. I prefer to have common ground.

As this thread has gone along I have also been drawn into debate, which I don't like.

 

[Truthseeker]

Yeah I don't really care. I hold zero validity for his words, or his self-indulgent, self-imposed claims of great suffering. I'm not going to engage in some nonsense thought experiment predicated on "what if's" and "let's suppose" to try and justify such an outlandish and egregious claim. Especially when your example is "people are used to their suffering, and bahaullah is so pure that of course he suffered more!" That's just... disgusting. And victim blaming. And just incredibly ignorantly naïve.

I wish I never got involved in this thread. Trying to back up what Tony started. I prefer to find common ground than debate. Of course you don't believe this. Adib Taherzadeh's audience was pretty much Baha'is, so there was a common background on all this. I found this useful as a Baha'i when I read it. Why the heck am I quoting this to people who won't believe this?

 

[Truthseeker]

It's not slander when it is true. You Baha'i admit to accepting the bigotry of Baha'u'llah, and some even say you Baha'i have no choice, you can't oppose immoral doctrines in your religion. So to be a Baha'i means to accept bigotry, and i don't understand that. The Baha'i certainly avoid this topic, probably because they recognize it is a serious moral flaw in their Messenger. Can this bigotry be defended morally? No. All the Baha'i can say is that your Messenger says so.

It's slander to say that Baha'u'llah was bigoted. What evidence do you have that Baha'u'llah was bigoted towards homosexuals? Just that Baha'is shouldn't have homosexual sex. That is not saying that homosexuals are morally depraved because they have an attraction towards people of the same gender. This has been repeatedly explained and yet you persist in saying this despite all reason. What you say is not proven to any reasonable person, and I believe you know that.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Why the heck am I quoting this to people who won't believe this?

A good question. Your faith is your own, and I will defend your right to it. But it is yours, and shouldn't really be shared unless asked.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

What evidence do you have that Baha'u'llah was bigoted towards homosexuals? Just that Baha'is shouldn't have homosexual sex.

Why shouldn't Baha'is have homosexual sex? Are homosexuals not allowed to be Baha'i? If they are, why would you deprive them of who they are? Questions abound...