None Indian gods

[Vinayaka]

This is the Hinduism forum, not the atheist forum.

Agreed, and thanks for having the will to take this on. Frankly, I gave up some time ago when Aup was one person in about 20 on here still defending AIT. But seeing things through fresh eyes is always useful.

 

[Vinayaka]

I must say I've appreciated this thread and the sentiments put out. I'm white, and have embraced Hinduism for well over ten years... BUT, have always fallen short because I couldn't take part in those aspects of it that, to me, were ethnically Indian. I would agree generally that Hinduism has a very large part that is transferrable and is not bound by culture, but in my experience there's are so many things that are 'culturally Hindu' that I felt really uncomfortable even thinking of taking part in.
.

Maybe you just have to give it some time. I've been at it 40 years and I take on all things Indian. It took awhile to be totally accepted, and I had to put some effort into it. Perhaps it had to do with community and situation though, as we were basically the lone whites amongst Tamils, so it was integrate or die figuratively. We like to say we've been Tamilised. So perhaps if you made a point to hang out more with the Indian Hindu community, you'd get more integrated too.

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

So perhaps if you made a point to hang out more with the Indian Hindu community, you'd get more integrated too.

This was my experience early on. Many things that one might consider culturally Indian I tried to be respectful of without presuming I could participate, but I gradually got to know the community better and without me asking or intruding I was encouraged to help make the weekend lunches, participate in Garbha dances, and offered free salwars other "Indian clothes". I think people just want to know that you are sincere, and that you aren't out to make a mockery of them. It does take time as you said. But it's worth it. I'm still working on getting my new community to warm up to me.

:camp:

 

[Vinayaka]

This was my experience early on. Many things that one might consider culturally Indian I tried to be respectful of without presuming I could participate, but I gradually got to know the community better and without me asking or intruding I was encouraged to help make the weekend lunches, participate in Garbha dances, and offered free salwars other "Indian clothes". I think people just want to know that you are sincere, and that you aren't out to make a mockery of them. It does take time as you said. But it's worth it. I'm still working on getting my new community to warm up to me.

It's always nice to hear of your positive experiences. The other night, a newcomer (Indian origin, and fairly young) to our temple had a hard time understanding the fact a white person (me) was there. He stared for quite some time, but finally couldn't resist asking me something. His English was poor and he said, "You worship Gods here?" or something like that. Some of my friends of 30 years thought it was sort of cute, as did I. But I just nodded and mumbled, "Yes" and went on making the rounds.

But it's been so long now that I'm a bit suspicious of white people. But generally it's pretty obvious whether or not they have some clue or not. You can tell the total newcomers. But then some Indians behave like total newcomers too, just unfamiliar with the routine of this particular temple. Generally I will do a brief explanation for them. "Follow the priest." for example.

 

[Benst]

But it's been so long now that I'm a bit suspicious of white people. But generally it's pretty obvious whether or not they have some clue or not. You can tell the total newcomers. But then some Indians behave like total newcomers too, just unfamiliar with the routine of this particular temple. Generally I will do a brief explanation for them. "Follow the priest." for example.

This reminded me of a skit from Goodness, Gracious Me...

[youtube]-ydAWIsMfUU[/youtube]
Goodness Gracious Me- white wife - YouTube

Sometimes you really can see the newbies. Not that it's a bad thing, just sticks out like a sore thumb. When I was 16 and just starting to really become interested in it, I was working at Walmart and what I later found out to be a Pakistani Muslim family came to ask me a question about stock, and I put my hands together and said 'Namaste!' I didn't understand at the time why the wife burst out laughing, although they were regular customers and explained to me later on. Although they were flattered I had some of a sense of the general area they were from HA.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There is no need to discuss this in the Same Faith Debate, as it is an established fact in Hinduism. ..

And then followed by your points. That is called a discussion. Whether you, some people, RSS, or BJP think in a particular way, it does not mean that it is true. That is what is known as a 'difference of opinion' (matantara). Kindly do not force me into a discussion in this forum where it is not allowed.

"Derivation of the word Aryan:

The English word "Aryan" is borrowed from the Sanskrit word ārya meaning 'Noble'; but apparently, it was initially used as a national name to designate those who worshiped the Vedic deities (especially Indra) and followed Vedic culture (e.g. performance of sacrifice, Yajna). The Zend airya 'venerable' and Old Persian ariya are also thought to be national names.

As a translation of Latin Ariānus for Ariāna ("the eastern part of ancient Persia"), Arian(es) has long been in English use. Aryan is of recent introduction in comparative philology.

In Armenian the word ari (Armenian: ար&#1387 means brave and noble, and the word ayr (Armenian: այ&#1408 means man, which, as some scholars believe, correspond to the Graeco-Aryan theory of origin of Indo-European peoples.

In Iranian context the original self-identifier lives on in ethnic names like "Alani", "Ir". Similarly, The word Iran is the Persian word for land/place of the Aryans (see also Iranian peoples)."
Aryan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Aupmanyav]

You can first change the consensus of the Hindu sects and Hindu nationalist parties to that of your viewpoint first, and then debate with me in the Same Faith Debate forum.

Debating over such a fact is really a waste of time and energy. Same thing happened with your erroneous interpretation of Advaita which has been criticized by others as well.

I do not have to change anybody's view, and views of chauvinist people cannot be changed in any way. Just like some religious people will not accept Big-Bang or Evolution in spite of all advances made by science. Similarly chauvinist Hindus disregard strong historical and linguistic evidence for migration of Aryans into India.

Ravi, Hinduism has not given you or any other Hindu the authority to call my views erroronous. My views are mine. You have full liberty to differ with them. The forum allows you to put your views across but it prohibits you from criticizing anybody else's views. You said 'this is not an atheist forum', but tell me if the atheist happens to be a Hindu, why should he not participate in this forum?

 

[Poeticus]

I do not have to change anybody's view, and views of chauvinist people cannot be changed in any way. Just like some religious people will not accept Big-Bang or Evolution in spite of all advances made by science. Similarly chauvinist Hindus disregard strong historical and linguistic evidence for migration of Aryans into India.

This is getting beyond ironic, Aup.
Not too long ago, it was you who
called yourself a militant Hindu. Yet,
here you criticize chauvinist Hindus.
This is completely inconsistent.​

 

[Benst]

Maybe you just have to give it some time. I've been at it 40 years and I take on all things Indian. It took awhile to be totally accepted, and I had to put some effort into it. Perhaps it had to do with community and situation though, as we were basically the lone whites amongst Tamils, so it was integrate or die figuratively. We like to say we've been Tamilised. So perhaps if you made a point to hang out more with the Indian Hindu community, you'd get more integrated too.

When I was Uni, I had a good group of Indian friends, where I am now is pretty monotonously white... but I agree with you, the more I hung out with these people the more they responded to me without the needing to explain or put into terms that a Westerner might understand.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Not too long ago, it was you who called yourself a militant Hindu. Yet, here you criticize chauvinist Hindus. This is completely inconsistent.

You have not noticed the words. I may be a millitant Hindu but I am not a 'koopa-manduka' stuck-in-time non-scientific regressive Hindu, that is a 'chavinist Hindu', who might not accept partition of India, may say that there were airplanes and atom-bombs with the warring parties during the Mahabharata war. They bring us infamy. (undeline mine)

chauvinism - n (Aup. adds: including religious chauvinism)
1. aggressive or fanatical patriotism; jingoism
2. enthusiastic devotion to a cause
3. smug irrational belief in the superiority of one's own race, party, sex, etc: male chauvinism
(Dictionary.com)

 

[Ravi500]

And then followed by your points. That is called a discussion. Whether you, some people, RSS, or BJP think in a particular way, it does not mean that it is true. That is what is known as a 'difference of opinion' (matantara). Kindly do not force me into a discussion in this forum where it is not allowed.

So, what the rss and bjp,the hindu nationalistic parties whom you professed to support, does not matter anything to you.

The consensus of the Hindu sects and masters , by whom millions of Hindus go, does not matter to you.

What matters to you is your personal fancies and quixotic fantasies.

I am not interested in debating whether someone's personal fancy is correct or the established teaching of a religion validated by established authorities is correct.

That would be a belittlement of my own standards.

 

[Vinayaka]

When I was 16 and just starting to really become interested in it, I was working at Walmart and what I later found out to be a Pakistani Muslim family came to ask me a question about stock, and I put my hands together and said 'Namaste!' I didn't understand at the time why the wife burst out laughing, although they were regular customers and explained to me later on. Although they were flattered I had some of a sense of the general area they were from HA.

That's funny, and probably reasonably common. Of course we make those kinds of mistakes. One day after temple I went into an Indian store still wearing vibuthi and pottu, and the lady said, "You come from Mandir?" Mundare is a town near here I hadn't heard of the term 'Mandir' yet as our temple is South Indian (koyil, and temple I knew) and I hadn't yet gone to other temples. So I said, "No, I am from Edmonton, not Mundare."

But those things are just funny, as was the video. That's me at temple ... the only guy in veshti is the white guy.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So, what the rss and bjp,the hindu nationalistic parties whom you professed to support, does not matter anything to you. The consensus of the Hindu sects and masters , by whom millions of Hindus go, does not matter to you. What matters to you is your personal fancies and quixotic fantasies.

No, if RSS or BJP people think differently, it does not matter. If Hindu sects and masters differ, then also it does not matter. What matters to me is an explanation that I can accept with least doubts. Ever read Kalama Sutta. I reproduce that, perhaps it will benefit you.

"Kalamas, do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing, nor upon tradition, nor upon rumor, nor upon what is in a scripture, nor upon surmise, nor upon an axiom, nor upon specious reasoning, nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over, nor upon another's seeming ability, nor upon the consideration, "The monk is our teacher."

Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness, enter on and abide in them."
Kalama Sutta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ravi500]

No, if RSS or BJP people think differently, it does not matter. If Hindu sects and masters differ, then also it does not matter. What matters to me is an explanation that I can accept with least doubts.

That is something you have to clear up with being with sages and saints who have experience.

If a quack prescribes wrong medicine due to his personal fancies and ego,not taking into account what the established authorities in the medical profession have stated, it is the innocent patients who will suffer.

Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness, enter on and abide in them."
Kalama Sutta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And is your points good and noble, not blamable, praised by the wise masters, and when undertaken and observed lead to benefit and happiness !!!

My own answer is that it is evil, highly blamable, never praised by any wise master , and when undertaken and observed leads to ruin and unhappiness.

Lord Krishna himself states that there is nothing in this world as purifying as spiritual knowledge.

We can conversely infer from this that there is nothing in this world as corrupting as falsehood presented as truth.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

That is something you have to clear up with being with sages and saints who have experience.

If a quack prescribes wrong medicine due to his personal fancies and ego,not taking into account what the established authorities in the medical profession have stated, it is the innocent patients who will suffer.



And is your points good and noble, not blamable, praised by the wise masters, and when undertaken and observed lead to benefit and happiness !!!

My own answer is that it is evil, highly blamable, never praised by any wise master , and when undertaken and observed leads to ruin and unhappiness.

I agree that this staunch view of the AIT theory should be thrown in the trash. According to Finnish mleccha Asko Parpola, I would be a dasyu (since I'm primarily of Tajik-Iranian descent), . Regardless, I do find it a bit odd how aupamanyav always has an obsession with "Aryan" this - "Indigenous" that, all it does is tend to divide up Indians, when the genetic distinctions are often very little.

The following post by mAnasataraMginI summarizes it quite well:

"Of course TSPians, Nepalese, Lankans and Afghans might vehemently object to this race being called Indian because it might shake their very claims to distinctness. But it is better they accept the truth staring on them that they are just fragments of the whole and move on with it. Many TSPians, like Sindhis, Baloch and Pathans are bit of neither here nor there, with some Western admixture.

Another result strengthened from this study is that Indians are definitely closer to Europeans and Middle Easterners than to Mongoloids. Thus, all those Indians being forced to describe themselves as Asians on American forms are being made to mis-report their genetic affinities by wrongly grouping them with a more divergent group. On the whole this supports the well known idea of a Caucasian higher-order cluster which is divided into two main branches: Western Caucasoids a.k.a Whites and Eastern Caucasoids, who should be called Indians.

However, the most important find is that Indians from the length and breadth of India are closer to each other than Europeans or Mongoloids are amongst themselves. There, is very little correlation between geography and allele distribution in Indian varNa population, because of they pretty closely related to each other throughout the country. This means we have every reason to remain one country, united by our genes and original dharma. If anything, the only thing that can fragment Indians is not their genetic divergence but Abrahamistic memetic infections like Islam and Christianity."

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Yes - this is one of the reasons why I'm still apprehensive about talking to my family about it because I know when I say 'Hinduism' visions of 60s era love fests and drug-orgies are going to come to their minds. Or at best they'll think of ISKCON...

...It's just going to be a lot of explaining

But I guess if someone doesn't dispel the misconceptions no one will.

:camp:

praNAm FH,
LOL, reminds me of those newagers who tell me they have trouble "controlling" their sahasrArachakra (so weird)! Oh, and songs like this certainly don't help:
[youtube]GUqEPS6Mq8I[/youtube]

 

[Ravi500]

I agree that this staunch view of the AIT theory should be thrown in the trash. According to Finnish mleccha Asko Parpola, I would be a dasyu (since I'm primarily of Tajik-Iranian descent), . Regardless, I do find it a bit odd how aupamanyav always has an obsession with "Aryan" this - "Indigenous" that, all it does is tend to divide up Indians, when the genetic distinctions are often very little.

Racially speaking, one can say that Indians are a mixed lot. That is a different subject altogether and I don't think that is something to be discussed in the Hinduism forum, which is what I was finding issue with Aupmanyav with. It is productive of great unconsciousness and adharma.

I have stated that the Arya means noble, and not some-thing related to any race whatsoever , as per the scriptures, Hindu sects, saints and political parties as well.

The only qualification for the Arya is an excellent character and conduct, the same qualities which enabled Satyakama Jabala, the illegitimate son of a prostitute who was not aware of his father's identity, to be accepted as a disciple by his Guru.

The low-born Vidura was considered as an Arya for his civilised conduct in the court where Draupadi was disrobed, while the high-born kauravas were seen as unArya for their ignoble conduct.

There have been many immigrants and invaders to India who have been embraced into the Hindu fold, including Jews.This was in accordance with the ancient teachings of universality and spreading of culture and civilization.

Furthermore, the teachings of reincarnation would also logically blur any distinctive identities , as one can be reborn in any race or nation after the present life. Thus identification with a group or race would go against the character of the religion and its teachings.

The only qualification for the Arya is an excellent character, conduct and wisdom and for that matter anyone can be an Arya in this world who possess these qualities, regardless of race, nationality and other external labels .

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is something you have to clear up with being with sages and saints who have experience.

If a quack prescribes wrong medicine due to his personal fancies and ego,not taking into account what the established authorities in the medical profession have stated, it is the innocent patients who will suffer.

I am not prescribing anything to anybody. These are my views. At the age of 71, I too have some experience of life. There is nothing that you can suggest to me.

My own answer is that it is evil, highly blamable, never praised by any wise master, and when undertaken and observed leads to ruin and unhappiness.

You have your views, I have mine. And they are different. Nothing much can be done about that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Regardless, I do find it a bit odd how aupamanyav always has an obsession with "Aryan" this - "Indigenous" that, all it does is tend to divide up Indians, when the genetic distinctions are often very little.

Why should it divide? Can you deny that some Shakas (Scythians), Kushanas (Yuezhi) and Hunas came to India and merged into Hindus? There was migration from East also, easily apparent by slanting eyes in Indian East. Greeks and Parthians also mingled among Hindus. So what is so strange about Aryans coming into India and settling down in India and eventually merging with Hindus? It is a question of history and history should be pursued honestly without biases. After at least some 4,000 years of mingling, what distinctions will remain? That much there are.

I have stated that the Arya means noble, and not some-thing related to any race whatsoever, as per the scriptures, Hindu sects, saints and political parties as well.

You mean you state something and it becomes the word of God. Did you notice the other explanations of the word 'Arya' that I mentioned from dictionaries. They have also taken it from scriptures. Why do you make what I say into a discussion when such a thing is not allowed in a blue directory? The discussions should be in the same faith forum.

 

[Ravi500]

I am not prescribing anything to anybody. These are my views. At the age of 71, I too have some experience of life. There is nothing that you can suggest to me.

I am reminded of this saying by Frank Zappa — 'A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.'

Also old age is not synonymous with wisdom. It can also lead to erroneous ways.

Hiranyakashipu , Prahlada's father was older and more experienced than him, and still he erred in his judgement while his young son was precise.

Jabali was older and more experienced than Rama, but still he erred in his judgement in relation to Rama.

The Rishis who created the scriptures and interpreted advaita with precision were quite aged themselves, whose teachings you take pleasure in contradicting as false.

Did you notice the other explanations of the word 'Arya' that I mentioned from dictionaries. They have also taken it from scriptures. Why do you make what I say into a discussion when such a thing is not allowed in a blue directory? The discussions should be in the same faith forum..

Arya means noble and performer of vedic practices,as per Hinduism. But there is nothing in Hinduism or Vedas, which states that the aryas came from outside India.Hence such a suggestion is not there in the scriptures . That is a recent outside speculation, which has not been substantiated in any manner and draws disapproval from the established authorities in Hinduism. And this is what I am taking offence with over here.

Debate in the same faith forum regarding established teachings in the religion is incorrect and trivialises the religion.

You have your views, I have mine. And they are different. Nothing much can be done about that.

As I said before, there are established teachings in the Hinduism forum.

If everyone follows their personal fancies in your manner, ignoring the established teachings, the result will be anarchy and chaos.

This is why I am hoping that you will follow the established viewpoint in Hinduism.