Not even Christians believe the *edit* of creation

[DavidSMoore]

Here's the first sentence of the Bible:

When God began to create the heavens and the earth, the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
(Genesis 1:1-2, New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition)

(The New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition was published in 2019. The organization that holds the copyright on that version is the National Council of Churches of the United States of America. So it represents the orthodox Christian interpretation in the United States.)
The above passage clearly states that God fashioned the universe from the pre-existing substances of the earth and the waters. There is no major Christian sect today that believes that. Here's what the Catholic Catechism says:

We believe that God needs no pre-existent thing or any help in order to create, nor is creation any sort of necessary emanation from the divine substance. God creates freely “out of nothing”:
If God had drawn the world from pre-existent matter, what would be so extraordinary in that? A human artisan makes from a given material whatever he wants, while God shows his power by starting from nothing to make all he wants.
(Catholic Catechism, 296; Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 1, Article 1, Paragraph 4

So the Catholic Church believes the exact opposite of what the very first sentence of the Bible actually says. The same is true of the other major Christian sects.

Here's what the Bible says happened on Day 2:

And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
(NRSVue, Genesis 6-8)

Note that the above passage says that there are waters above the dome. Why would there be waters above the Earth's sky? Answer: Because the author of this *Staff Edit* believed that the universe is a giant ocean of water. And why would anyone believe such a thing? The fact is that there were many people throughout the ancient world who ardently believed exactly that-- and we have clear evidence from the Bible itself that the Israelites were in direct contact with them. For example the Bible says that the Israelites were held captive in Egypt for 430 years. That would have been plenty of time for them to have learned of the religious beliefs and practices of ancient Egypt. One of the several stories of the creation that was popular in ancient Egypt originated in the city of On. That narrative said that the universe began as an ocean of water, that a mound of fertile earth appeared and that the god Atum created himself and then engendered the gods Shu and Tefnut. And between the three of them they created everything else in the universe.
And there was the Babylonian captivity. In 597 BCE the Neo-Babylonian empire conquered the kingdom of Judah and hauled off its elites to the city of Babylon to serve the empire. We know that at least some parts of the Bible were written in Babylon since Psalm 137 specifically states that it was written in the city of Babylon on the banks of the Euphrates river. While there the Israelites would surely have heard the Enuma Elish-- the Babylonian myth of creation. That story said that the universe began as an ocean of water and that the first act of the creation was the separation of the good water (i.e. fresh) from the bad water (i.e. salty).
As far as I am aware there are no modern Christians who actually believe that the universe is an ocean of water. And if there are I would have to ask: How exactly did the Apollo astronauts get to and from the Moon? Did they swim?

Note also that the Day 2 passage cited above says that the sky (i.e. the atmosphere) is dome shaped. Why would God have created a dome shaped atmosphere over a spherical Earth? Answer: He wouldn't have. He would only have created a dome-shaped atmosphere over a flat, disk-shaped Earth. And that's because the author of the *edit* believed that the Earth is a flat disk.
I know there are a few people who still believe that the Earth is flat, and yes I'm familiar with the lunacy advocated by The Flat Earth Society: The Flat Earth Society. But any flat earth model is easily disproved. In the "naive" flat Earth model the sun revolves around the Earth in a plane that is perpendicular to the plane of the Earth. But such a model makes no accounting of time zones, since observers anywhere on the Earth would see the sun rise and set at exactly the same time. As for the Flat Earth Society's model, the sun revolves in an orbit above and parallel to the plane of the Earth. In that model the sun would neither rise nor set.

There is not one substantive fact about the creation-- and evolution-- of the universe that the *edit* the Bible got right. Some Christians may disagree violently with that statement, but I don't think that even the most ardent defenders of the *edit* would agree with what the first sentence of the story actually says. So let's first agree as to the meaning of the very first sentence of the Bible and then we can talk about other aspects of the 13.7 billion year evolution of the universe. If we can't even agree on that then there's no point in trying to argue about the rest of the *edit*.

 

[Eli G]

Some believers have allowed themselves to be fooled by evolutionists, which is normal, since some evolutionists do not even understand that doctrine and believe that it is true only because of the position of those who preach it.

Jesus Christ was not an evolutionist, but on the contrary: he believed that the Creator made a unique couple at the beginning of humanity as the Bible explains.

Matt. 19:4 In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”

Many atheists with their own agendas entered theological schools and other religious institutions in order to shape religious mentality. Jehovah's Witnesses are people not molded by the world, and we help others escape human agendas...

2 Cor. 4:3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

Many self-proclaimed "Christians" also do not believe in the existence of the Devil. That does not mean that Jesus was speaking alone when the Bible describes a dialogue between him and that evil spiritual person who rules the human system of things from above.

 

[DavidSMoore]

You:

Some believers have allowed themselves to be fooled by evolutionists, which is normal, since some evolutionists do not even understand that doctrine and believe that it is true only because of the position of those who preach it.

Are you accusing me of being one who doesn't understand the doctrine of evolution? I didn't elaborate a narrative of the evolution of the universe. Why don't you wait until I present such a narrative before you accuse me of not understanding it?

You:

Many self-proclaimed "Christians" also do not believe in the existence of the Devil.

Okay, let's see if you believe in the Devil. Here's what the Bible says about God's assessment of the creation:

God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good. (Genesis 1:31, NRSVue)

So did God create the Devil?
Think about your answer before replying. If you say that yes, God did create the Devil, then you would in effect be saying that the Devil is good, since God said that everything he had created is good. Since the Devil is supposed to be the embodiment of pure evil, that would mean that evil is good. You'd better have a really well thought out answer to that one, because if you don't I'm just going to laugh.
On the other hand if you say that no, your omnipotent God did not create the Devil, then you would be acknowledging that there is a being who is absolutely essential to your theology who God didn't create. So I'm going to ask you who or what did create the Devil. You'd better have a really well thought out answer to that question or I'm just going to laugh.

Your posting has nothing to do with my original post. Just give me the yes or no answers to the three questions I asked in that post:

1. Do you believe that God fashioned the universe from the pre-existing substances of the chaos and the waters, as the first sentence of the Bible says?
2. Do you believe that the universe is an ocean of water, as the Bible says about the events of Day 2?
3. Do you believe that the Earth is a flat disk?

If you can't-- or won't-- answer those questions, then you and I will have no basis for further conversation.

 

[Eli G]

The first words of the Bible:

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That was the very first creation of God. With "heavens" is implied all the bodies that exist in space, and with "earth" it refers to a primordial planet.

Second line:

Gen. 1:2 Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s active force was moving about over the surface of the waters.

The condition of that primeval planet is described, and from there the narrative focuses on this planet.

Although the Bible mentions aspects of the creation of the universe in different passages to refer to the beautiful spatial vision of God's creation seen from a human observer, the main focus is on our spatial home: our planet, its creation, its adaptation to life, its "misfortune" and its future.

The 6 "days" of creation in Genesis do not refer to the entire universe.

 

[DavidSMoore]

The first words of the Bible:

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That was the very first creation of God. With "heavens" is implied all the bodies that exist in space, and with "earth" it refers to a primordial planet.

So you did not read my original posting. Here's what I said:

Here's the first sentence of the Bible:
When God began to create the heavens and the earth, the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
(Genesis 1:1-2, New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition)
(The New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition was published in 2019. The organization that holds the copyright on that version is the National Council of Churches of the United States of America. So it represents the orthodox Christian interpretation in the United States.)

You quoted from a different translation. The version that I quoted from is orthodox.

You:

Second line:

Gen. 1:2 Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s active force was moving about over the surface of the waters.

Is that supposed to be an answer to the question about the events of Day 2? Because the passage you cited describes the state of the universe before God began the act of creation by saying "Let there be light." Again, if we can't even agree on the meaning of the very first sentence of the Bible there's no point in trying to have a further discussion.

 

[Eli G]

You talk a lot, but you don't say anything.

 

[McBell]

You talk a lot, but you don't say anything.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Here's the first sentence of the Bible:

(The New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition was published in 2019. The organization that holds the copyright on that version is the National Council of Churches of the United States of America. So it represents the orthodox Christian interpretation in the United States.)
The above passage clearly states that God fashioned the universe from the pre-existing substances of the earth and the waters. There is no major Christian sect today that believes that. Here's what the Catholic Catechism says:

So the Catholic Church believes the exact opposite of what the very first sentence of the Bible actually says. The same is true of the other major Christian sects.

Here's what the Bible says happened on Day 2:

Note that the above passage says that there are waters above the dome. Why would there be waters above the Earth's sky? Answer: Because the author of this *Staff Edit* believed that the universe is a giant ocean of water. And why would anyone believe such a thing? The fact is that there were many people throughout the ancient world who ardently believed exactly that-- and we have clear evidence from the Bible itself that the Israelites were in direct contact with them. For example the Bible says that the Israelites were held captive in Egypt for 430 years. That would have been plenty of time for them to have learned of the religious beliefs and practices of ancient Egypt. One of the several stories of the creation that was popular in ancient Egypt originated in the city of On. That narrative said that the universe began as an ocean of water, that a mound of fertile earth appeared and that the god Atum created himself and then engendered the gods Shu and Tefnut. And between the three of them they created everything else in the universe.
And there was the Babylonian captivity. In 597 BCE the Neo-Babylonian empire conquered the kingdom of Judah and hauled off its elites to the city of Babylon to serve the empire. We know that at least some parts of the Bible were written in Babylon since Psalm 137 specifically states that it was written in the city of Babylon on the banks of the Euphrates river. While there the Israelites would surely have heard the Enuma Elish-- the Babylonian myth of creation. That story said that the universe began as an ocean of water and that the first act of the creation was the separation of the good water (i.e. fresh) from the bad water (i.e. salty).
As far as I am aware there are no modern Christians who actually believe that the universe is an ocean of water. And if there are I would have to ask: How exactly did the Apollo astronauts get to and from the Moon? Did they swim?

Note also that the Day 2 passage cited above says that the sky (i.e. the atmosphere) is dome shaped. Why would God have created a dome shaped atmosphere over a spherical Earth? Answer: He wouldn't have. He would only have created a dome-shaped atmosphere over a flat, disk-shaped Earth. And that's because the author of the *edit* believed that the Earth is a flat disk.
I know there are a few people who still believe that the Earth is flat, and yes I'm familiar with the lunacy advocated by The Flat Earth Society: The Flat Earth Society. But any flat earth model is easily disproved. In the "naive" flat Earth model the sun revolves around the Earth in a plane that is perpendicular to the plane of the Earth. But such a model makes no accounting of time zones, since observers anywhere on the Earth would see the sun rise and set at exactly the same time. As for the Flat Earth Society's model, the sun revolves in an orbit above and parallel to the plane of the Earth. In that model the sun would neither rise nor set.

There is not one substantive fact about the creation-- and evolution-- of the universe that the *edit* the Bible got right. Some Christians may disagree violently with that statement, but I don't think that even the most ardent defenders of the *edit* would agree with what the first sentence of the story actually says. So let's first agree as to the meaning of the very first sentence of the Bible and then we can talk about other aspects of the 13.7 billion year evolution of the universe. If we can't even agree on that then there's no point in trying to argue about the rest of the *edit*.

Genesis 1:1 is quite often ignored even though it clearly says

"in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth"!

So no, God did not form the earth from an existing chaos...he had already created the heavens and the earth in verse 1!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Here's the first sentence of the Bible:

When God began to create the heavens and the earth, the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
(Genesis 1:1-2, New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition)

(The New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition was published in 2019. The organization that holds the copyright on that version is the National Council of Churches of the United States of America. So it represents the orthodox Christian interpretation in the United States.)
The above passage clearly states that God fashioned the universe from the pre-existing substances of the earth and the waters. There is no major Christian sect today that believes that.

Yes.

See: The Genesis of Time.

I first referenced it in my 2019 thread titled "Genesis 1:1-3 (again) -- an interesting article." There I noted:

​

... significant translations -- used by many if not most English speaking Reform, Conservative, and Reconstructionist Jews -- translate the word as being in the construct state (smichut), These include the various Torah's employing the New JPS translation (e.g. The Jewish Study Bible, The Plaut Commentary, Etz Hayim, etc) and the translations of Robert Alter, Everett Fox, and Richard Elliott Friedman.​

​

Robert Alter offers:​

​

When God began to create heaven and earth, and the earth then was welter and waste and darkness over the deep and God's breath hovering over the water, ...​

​

The Everett Fox translation reads:​

​

At the beginning of God's creating of the heavens and the earth,​

when the earth was wild and waste,​

darkness over the face of the Ocean,​

rushing-spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters --​

BTW, when counterposing the NRSV to the KJV, it's worth acknowledging that Harry Orlinsky deserves a good deal of credit.

 

[DavidSMoore]

Genesis 1:1 is quite often ignored even though it clearly says

"in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth"!

So no, God did not form the earth from an existing chaos...he had already created the heavens and the earth in verse 1!

It appears to me that you've cited the RSV. I'm citing the New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition (NRSVue) which was published in 2019. The group that owns the copyright for that version is the National Council of Churches of the United States Of America. So it is as orthodox as any other translation.

Besides, the Bible never actually says that God created the waters-- and the waters are extremely important. On Day 2 of the Creation story we learn that the entire universe is filled with water. So where did the waters come from if God did not create them?

The RSV has the following footnote that appears after the first occurrence of the word "created":

Or When God began to create

If we substitute that phrase into the first paragraph of the RSV we get the following:

When God began to create the heavens and the earth, the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
(Genesis 1:1-2, RSV with footnote inserted)

So the interpretation rendered in the NRSVue was always implicit in the RSV 75 years ago.

 

[Brian2]

Here's the first sentence of the Bible:

(The New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition was published in 2019. The organization that holds the copyright on that version is the National Council of Churches of the United States of America. So it represents the orthodox Christian interpretation in the United States.)
The above passage clearly states that God fashioned the universe from the pre-existing substances of the earth and the waters. There is no major Christian sect today that believes that. Here's what the Catholic Catechism says:

So the Catholic Church believes the exact opposite of what the very first sentence of the Bible actually says. The same is true of the other major Christian sects.

Yes that is a strange translation. I suppose it might be a correct translation but I don't see why it would mean that God fashioned the universe from pre existing substance.

Here's what the Bible says happened on Day 2:

Note that the above passage says that there are waters above the dome. Why would there be waters above the Earth's sky? Answer: Because the author of this *Staff Edit* believed that the universe is a giant ocean of water. And why would anyone believe such a thing? The fact is that there were many people throughout the ancient world who ardently believed exactly that-- and we have clear evidence from the Bible itself that the Israelites were in direct contact with them. For example the Bible says that the Israelites were held captive in Egypt for 430 years. That would have been plenty of time for them to have learned of the religious beliefs and practices of ancient Egypt. One of the several stories of the creation that was popular in ancient Egypt originated in the city of On. That narrative said that the universe began as an ocean of water, that a mound of fertile earth appeared and that the god Atum created himself and then engendered the gods Shu and Tefnut. And between the three of them they created everything else in the universe.
And there was the Babylonian captivity. In 597 BCE the Neo-Babylonian empire conquered the kingdom of Judah and hauled off its elites to the city of Babylon to serve the empire. We know that at least some parts of the Bible were written in Babylon since Psalm 137 specifically states that it was written in the city of Babylon on the banks of the Euphrates river. While there the Israelites would surely have heard the Enuma Elish-- the Babylonian myth of creation. That story said that the universe began as an ocean of water and that the first act of the creation was the separation of the good water (i.e. fresh) from the bad water (i.e. salty).
As far as I am aware there are no modern Christians who actually believe that the universe is an ocean of water. And if there are I would have to ask: How exactly did the Apollo astronauts get to and from the Moon? Did they swim?

Note also that the Day 2 passage cited above says that the sky (i.e. the atmosphere) is dome shaped. Why would God have created a dome shaped atmosphere over a spherical Earth? Answer: He wouldn't have. He would only have created a dome-shaped atmosphere over a flat, disk-shaped Earth. And that's because the author of the *edit* believed that the Earth is a flat disk.

The waters above the sky are probably clouds and really the atmosphere is dome shaped above the earth from all parts of the earth.

I know there are a few people who still believe that the Earth is flat, and yes I'm familiar with the lunacy advocated by The Flat Earth Society: The Flat Earth Society. But any flat earth model is easily disproved. In the "naive" flat Earth model the sun revolves around the Earth in a plane that is perpendicular to the plane of the Earth. But such a model makes no accounting of time zones, since observers anywhere on the Earth would see the sun rise and set at exactly the same time. As for the Flat Earth Society's model, the sun revolves in an orbit above and parallel to the plane of the Earth. In that model the sun would neither rise nor set.

There is not one substantive fact about the creation-- and evolution-- of the universe that the *edit* the Bible got right. Some Christians may disagree violently with that statement, but I don't think that even the most ardent defenders of the *edit* would agree with what the first sentence of the story actually says. So let's first agree as to the meaning of the very first sentence of the Bible and then we can talk about other aspects of the 13.7 billion year evolution of the universe. If we can't even agree on that then there's no point in trying to argue about the rest of the *edit*.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. (ESV)
It means that in the beginning God created the heavans and the earth.
If your footnote in the RSV is correct then it could mean "When God began to create, He created the heavans and the earth".
That would bring it in line with other translations.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes that is a strange translation.

Why strange?

 

[Ignatius A]

Here's the first sentence of the Bible:

(The New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition was published in 2019. The organization that holds the copyright on that version is the National Council of Churches of the United States of America. So it represents the orthodox Christian interpretation in the United States.)
The above passage clearly states that God fashioned the universe from the pre-existing substances of the earth and the waters. There is no major Christian sect today that believes that. Here's what the Catholic Catechism says:

So the Catholic Church believes the exact opposite of what the very first sentence of the Bible actually says. The same is true of the other major Christian sects.

Here's what the Bible says happened on Day 2:

Note that the above passage says that there are waters above the dome. Why would there be waters above the Earth's sky? Answer: Because the author of this *Staff Edit* believed that the universe is a giant ocean of water. And why would anyone believe such a thing? The fact is that there were many people throughout the ancient world who ardently believed exactly that-- and we have clear evidence from the Bible itself that the Israelites were in direct contact with them. For example the Bible says that the Israelites were held captive in Egypt for 430 years. That would have been plenty of time for them to have learned of the religious beliefs and practices of ancient Egypt. One of the several stories of the creation that was popular in ancient Egypt originated in the city of On. That narrative said that the universe began as an ocean of water, that a mound of fertile earth appeared and that the god Atum created himself and then engendered the gods Shu and Tefnut. And between the three of them they created everything else in the universe.
And there was the Babylonian captivity. In 597 BCE the Neo-Babylonian empire conquered the kingdom of Judah and hauled off its elites to the city of Babylon to serve the empire. We know that at least some parts of the Bible were written in Babylon since Psalm 137 specifically states that it was written in the city of Babylon on the banks of the Euphrates river. While there the Israelites would surely have heard the Enuma Elish-- the Babylonian myth of creation. That story said that the universe began as an ocean of water and that the first act of the creation was the separation of the good water (i.e. fresh) from the bad water (i.e. salty).
As far as I am aware there are no modern Christians who actually believe that the universe is an ocean of water. And if there are I would have to ask: How exactly did the Apollo astronauts get to and from the Moon? Did they swim?

Note also that the Day 2 passage cited above says that the sky (i.e. the atmosphere) is dome shaped. Why would God have created a dome shaped atmosphere over a spherical Earth? Answer: He wouldn't have. He would only have created a dome-shaped atmosphere over a flat, disk-shaped Earth. And that's because the author of the *edit* believed that the Earth is a flat disk.
I know there are a few people who still believe that the Earth is flat, and yes I'm familiar with the lunacy advocated by The Flat Earth Society: The Flat Earth Society. But any flat earth model is easily disproved. In the "naive" flat Earth model the sun revolves around the Earth in a plane that is perpendicular to the plane of the Earth. But such a model makes no accounting of time zones, since observers anywhere on the Earth would see the sun rise and set at exactly the same time. As for the Flat Earth Society's model, the sun revolves in an orbit above and parallel to the plane of the Earth. In that model the sun would neither rise nor set.

There is not one substantive fact about the creation-- and evolution-- of the universe that the *edit* the Bible got right. Some Christians may disagree violently with that statement, but I don't think that even the most ardent defenders of the *edit* would agree with what the first sentence of the story actually says. So let's first agree as to the meaning of the very first sentence of the Bible and then we can talk about other aspects of the 13.7 billion year evolution of the universe. If we can't even agree on that then there's no point in trying to argue about the rest of the *edit*.

You're completely wrong about what the Catholic Church believes.

 

[Brian2]

Why strange?

I find nothing like it in these translations so it is indeed odd as a translation.

Genesis 1:1 - The Creation

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

biblehub.com

This is a Jewish translation of verse 1. This is closer to the NRSVUE.

1In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I find nothing like it in these translations so it is indeed odd as a translation.

If by "odd" you mean unfamiliar, I understand. The fact remains that you are familiar with various translations of the Septuagint and, apparently, unfamiliar with modern translations of the Masoretic Text which view Gen 1:1 as being in the what in Hebrew is called the construct state.

To quote from the Orlinsky link found in post #9:

Orlinsky's work earned him the position as a key translator on not one but two new Bible translations. Starting 1952, he helped the Protestant National Council with their Revised Standard Version (RSV) of the Bible and then again with the New Revised Standard Version (1989). Walter Harrelson, the vice-chairman of the 1989 translation committee, said that Orlinsky was instrumental in the translation. He helped to keep the committee on track in using the older Massoretic text rather than the easier-to-translate Septuagint, which is a Greek translation. Harrelson recalls Orlinsky's constant reminder, "We’re translating Hebrew Scriptures. We're not translating from the Greek Hebrew Scriptures." [emphasis added - JS]​

The result is the set of translations as in the JPS, the R.E. Friedman, the Rosenberg, the Everett Fox, and the Robert Alter translations.

 

[Brian2]

If by "odd" you mean unfamiliar, I understand. The fact remains that you are familiar with various translations of the Septuagint and, apparently, unfamiliar with modern translations of the Masoretic Text which view Gen 1:1 as being in the what in Hebrew is called the construct state.

To quote from the Orlinsky link found in post #9:

Orlinsky's work earned him the position as a key translator on not one but two new Bible translations. Starting 1952, he helped the Protestant National Council with their Revised Standard Version (RSV) of the Bible and then again with the New Revised Standard Version (1989). Walter Harrelson, the vice-chairman of the 1989 translation committee, said that Orlinsky was instrumental in the translation. He helped to keep the committee on track in using the older Massoretic text rather than the easier-to-translate Septuagint, which is a Greek translation. Harrelson recalls Orlinsky's constant reminder, "We’re translating Hebrew Scriptures. We're not translating from the Greek Hebrew Scriptures." [emphasis added - JS]​

The result is the set of translations as in the JPS, the R.E. Friedman, the Rosenberg, the Everett Fox, and the Robert Alter translations.

Thanks for that.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

It appears to me that you've cited the RSV. I'm citing the New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition (NRSVue) which was published in 2019. The group that owns the copyright for that version is the National Council of Churches of the United States Of America. So it is as orthodox as any other translation.

Besides, the Bible never actually says that God created the waters-- and the waters are extremely important. On Day 2 of the Creation story we learn that the entire universe is filled with water. So where did the waters come from if God did not create them?

The RSV has the following footnote that appears after the first occurrence of the word "created":



If we substitute that phrase into the first paragraph of the RSV we get the following:



So the interpretation rendered in the NRSVue was always implicit in the RSV 75 years ago.

in principio creavit Deus caelum et terram

In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.

(Latin Vulgate...far older than the RSV!)

I think making the statement it doesn't actually say God created the waters is about as stupid as saying it doesn't actually say God created bones or skin, or cartilage!

I note people quoting writers trying to find support for non literal reading of Moses work in Genesis...how about quoting the apostle Peter.

Read the 3 chapters of 2nd Peter

He claims he got his revelations from

1. Writings of prophets
2. Eyewitness to the ministry of christ
3. Divine revelation (we know from old testament thst this was largely given through visions...hard to confuse given the 2 other methods)

Peter states

God cast satan and his angels down to hell (Satan was formerly Lucifer, an angel!)
God saved Noah from a flood that wiped out all other life on earth

God saved Lot from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah

The epistle of Peteris almost irrefutable evidence that Christians of the first century were of the belief that Genesis was written as a historical account.
2nd Peter 2:
4For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell,a placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, among the eight; 6if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction,b reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly;c 7and if He rescued Lot, a righteous man distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)

 

[DavidSMoore]

...the atmosphere is dome shaped above the earth from all parts of the earth.

Then it would be a shell, not a dome.

@Brian2:

If your footnote in the RSV is correct then it could mean "When God began to create, He created the heavans and the earth".

The footnote reads:

Or When God began to create

The "Or" means "Instead of", not "in addition to".

 

[Kathryn]

There are many different interpretations of the bible.

 

[DavidSMoore]

I think making the statement it doesn't actually say God created the waters is about as stupid as saying it doesn't actually say God created bones or skin, or cartilage!

You do realize that you are calling the National Council of Churches of the United States of America stupid, right? That is the organization that holds the copyright on the New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition that we've been discussing. I suggest you take up your concerns about the proper translation of the first paragraph of Genesis with them.