Objective Value and seeing argument!

[Link]

I really do hate to be the one to break it to you, but you do NOT represent all theists.

But have you ever said a Theist is right in anything they argue with Atheists. Just wondering. Maybe you have...

 

[Link]

That will be why different people find different things beautiful then



Again - no argument, just an assumption that there is a truth about it.



Assertion - where is the argument?



Another assertion - where is the argument?

We are going to have say, if value exists, we can know somethings about it. If you are going to say we can't even know anything about the value of who we are, you are going to have prove that. Because if it exists, there is no reason to assume we can't know anything about it since we are directly experiencing ourselves with respect to it.

 

[McBell]

I already presented the argument in the OP. You are jumping from one premise to another. Which one(s) do you dispute and explain why.

Is it there is an objective value? I already explain why we wouldn't estimate nor society, if it was a complete illusion which it would be, if there is no objective value.

I already refuted your first premise.
Thus there has not been any need to move onto any of the other faulty premises.
Which have been refuted by others.

Yes, you presented your beliefs as though they were facts.
You made a series of bold empty claims are are now upset that you got called out for it.

 

[Link]

I already refuted your first premise.
Thus there has not been any need to move onto any of the other faulty premises.
Which have been refuted by others.

Yes, you presented your beliefs as though they were facts.
You made a series of bold empty claims are are now upset that you got called out for it.

Alright victory to Atheists again. Well done. No arguments proving God, good job Atheists you won again.

 

[McBell]

But have you ever said a Theist is right in anything they argue with Atheists. Just wondering. Maybe you have...

Interesting how you would be so quick to jump to this line of ad hominem right after getting upset when someone else did the exact same thing to you.

 

[McBell]

Alright victory to Atheists again. Well done. No arguments proving God, good job Atheists you won again.

Who is it you are trying to convince of gods existence?

 

[Link]

Interesting how you would be so quick to jump to this line of ad hominem right after getting upset when someone else did the exact same thing to you.

Maybe you are right, but you guys are frustrating, how you scramble with all sorts of fallacies and never calm discussion, whenever reminded of how God definitely exists instead ever listening and accepting the truth. It's overwhelming frustrating.

 

[Link]

By the way, if value is an illusion, then love is baseless, because love is valuing a human being. There is types of love, and types of valuing and types of valuing in relationships of one human to another, but all of it an illusion if there is no objective value.

Love sees the truth when it values human beings in my perspective. It doesn't fully know what it loves, but it loves based on the truth that humans do have objective value.

Selfishness as in preferring yourself over others, is of course, mathematically incorrect equation. It's irrational.

 

[McBell]

Maybe you are right, but you guys are frustrating, how you scramble with all sorts of fallacies and never calm discussion, whenever reminded of how God definitely exists instead ever listening and accepting the truth. It's overwhelming frustrating.

You have as yet to demonstrate that your beliefs are anything other than your beliefs.

 

[McBell]

By the way, if value is an illusion, then love is baseless, because love is valuing a human being. There is types of love, and types of valuing and types of valuing in relationships of one human to another, but all of it an illusion if there is no objective value.

Love sees the truth when it values human beings in my perspective.

Again, who are you trying to convince, us or yourself?

 

[Link]

Again, who are you trying to convince, us or yourself?

Let's see what others have to say. Obviously, you don't have much.

 

[Link]

To supplement this, I am going to support that this argument is made in Quran and hadiths. Perhaps people will take it more seriously, that, potentially, for all they know, God is making the same argument in his book and revealing the same truth and emphasizing on it.

Not sure if they will, but maybe....

 

[McBell]

Let's see what others have to say. Obviously, you don't have much.

Seems to me that if you were not trying to convince yourself, you would not need to keep talking about it.
You would not need to keep jumping all over the place defending it.
You would not need to argue simply for arguments sake.
You would actually make the attempt to understand what is being said to you beyond merely making a quick emotional reply....

 

[Link]

Seems to me that if you were not trying to convince yourself, you would not need to keep talking about it.
You would not need to keep jumping all over the place defending it.
You would not need to argue simply for arguments sake.
You would actually make the attempt to understand what is being said to you beyond merely making a quick emotional reply....

Pot, kettle... yeah it's one of those...

 

[McBell]

Pot, kettle... yeah it's one of those...

Putting your fingers in your ears and singing la la la only further demonstrates my point.

 

[Link]

@Meow Mix let's make 1 on 1 debate thread in the debate section about this. That way we can discuss each premise in detail, without the mess we seeing here.

 

[McBell]

To supplement this, I am going to support that this argument is made in Quran and hadiths. Perhaps people will take it more seriously, that, potentially, for all they know, God is making the same argument in his book and revealing the same truth and emphasizing on it.

Not sure if they will, but maybe....

Well then.
If you are going to drag your holy books into this and do a disservice to all of Islam, I will vacate the thread and not point it out.

 

[Link]

Well then.
If you are going to drag your holy books into this and do a disservice to all of Islam, I will vacate the thread and not point it out.

It's not disservice, but shows God is the author of Quran. There is no cosmological argument, but rather God says people aren't sure who began the universe or what began it, Muslims argue for centuries by arguments Quran didn't argue by.

Yet this argument in Quran emphasized in many places, shows, indeed the author is God to me. This is because of how clear it is, how potent, and how he selected in one of the chapters as sufficient reminder with respect to himself. He chose the most potent argument, most clearest, and one no human can do without (in living).

 

[ratiocinator]

We are going to have say, if value exists, we can know somethings about it. If you are going to say we can't even know anything about the value of who we are, you are going to have prove that. Because if it exists, there is no reason to assume we can't know anything about it since we are directly experiencing ourselves with respect to it.

It exists like any other subjective concept exists. That is, it exists in people's minds but they don't all agree about it (like they don't agree about which painting is most beautiful, which music is best, or what food they like).

Humans value things - there is nothing in anything you've said that suggests value exists in any other sense. People disagreeing on musical taste or art doesn't stop people wanting to be great artists or musicians but, just like value, there is no absolute objective criteria for either.

 

[sayak83]

Salam

(1) Is Value of who we are objective or subjective.

We would not even try to estimate who we are, if there was not an objective value to who we are. We don't subjectively decided we are good or bad, we try to rather see if we are good or bad.

Asking other humans feedback is not a problem, but we take account of what they say to help us recognize who we are. That is if we take their feedback without an objective value to who we are, they themselves would be just making it up and it would have no value.

The fact that we even take account of what others say, show, we are trying to recognize who we are and our value, some trying even to their best of their abilities.

We don't just assign ourselves value, we try to recognize what our value is, which means we have an objective value.

(2) We are a perception

Seeing compassion, love, justice, in ourselves and others, requires us to assess actions and believe there is personhood to the person, and states of being that are non-material. When I say non-material, I am not necessarily saying a soul yet, let's say, it's a program generated by the brain from an atheist point of view. Regardless of what viewpoint, we are an idea/non-material/perception type existence. Which brings the next point.

(3) Can our brains generate who we are accurately?

I say they cannot, because they don't have an objective measurement to who we are and way of assessing our actions, in short, we don't assign who we are accurately but rather estimate and somethings we are right about ourselves and other things wrong.

(4) If we have an objective value, where does it exist?

I say if we an objective value, the only place we really can exist is with God, in his vision, judging us exactly as we are. God sees us exactly as we are, and the only thing that can.


Putting the premises together:

(1) We are a perception.
(2) That value we perceive ourselves is not accurate to who we are.
(3) We have an accurate value to who we are.
(4) The accurate value to who we are, can only be seen and assigned by God (Perfect judge and assessor to who we are).

Therefore God exists.

Value is necessarily subjective. It cannot be otherwise. Even if God values us in some way, it remains a subjective value as it is a value given to us by a subject (God). Neither does it make it universal because it's from God. My pet cat's valuation of me remains as, legitimate and on equal footing as God's value of me.