• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

OBSERVATIONS ARE NOT OF THINGS

atanu

Member
Premium Member
"....... OBSERVATIONS ARE NOT OF THINGS": RICHARD CONN HENRY

This is a return to my pet subject Realism-Materialism versus Idealism. The common perception is that science supports the former worldview. This is a wrong perception. And this has great significance for understanding advaita too.

But Physicalists-materialists-philosophical naturalists hold that objective reality, often shortened to 'Reality', is the world external to the self. This external world is called nature or the realm of the physical sciences. Things and beings that exist as such in nature are supposed to be real.

Quantum Mechanics has now shown us that so-called measurements/observations are all contextual. I cite below five papers published in Nature, with links to full papers, that indicate that the so-called realism is not tenable.

a) The mental Universe : The Mental Universe

The author says "The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things."

In other words, the author points to the fact that the universe is our observation, but we forget the observation part and ascribe primacy to the 'observed'.

b) An experimental test of non-local realism | Nature : An experimental test of non-local realism | Nature

The authors conclude that giving up the concept of locality is not sufficient to be consistent with quantum experiments unless certain intuitive features of realism are abandoned.

In other words, the authors indicate that 'locality' and 'realism', the two axioms of Physicalsitic worldview, are untenable in light of results of their experiments.

c) Experimental non-classicality of an indivisible quantum system | Nature : Experimental non-classicality of an indivisible quantum system | Nature

The authors conclude "Our results illustrate a deep incompatibility between quantum mechanics and classical physics that cannot in any way result from entanglement.

Physicalists usually explain away the startling results of quantum mechanics by resorting to entanglement. This paper indicates that no non-contextual theory can be tenable -- there can be no a priori truth apart from the observation. All quantum theories are contextual and we surely constitute the most important context.

d) https://www.nature.com/articles/nphys3343.pdf?proof=true : Wheeler’s delayed-choice gedanken experiment with a single atom

Manning et al., conclude "Our experiment confirms Bohr’s view that it does not make sense to ascribe the wave or particle behaviour to a massive particle before the measurement takes place."

Wheeler’s supposition that a choice affects the ‘past history’ (of the photon) has been shown to be correct in past experiments using photon paths. In this paper, authors re-demonstrate with slow-moving massive helium atom what was already known for massless fast-moving photons that a future event (the method of detection) causes the photon (or the helium atom) to decide its past.

e) Quantum erasure with causally disconnected choice : Quantum erasure with causally disconnected choice

The paper recommends abandoning the ‘Realism’ worldview altogether, as no realistic picture is compatible with its results which hinge causally on disconnected choice.
...

So, it seems that science does not unequivocally endorse the philosophical stand that there is an objective reality 'out there'.
...

Intuitively, what could be more real than the awareness within which all objective reality is experienced? If we assume that all that we know is mediated by the electrochemical mechanism in brain, then we can never know the actual world out there. There is something out there and the brain shows you some pixelated 3D model. How do we ever know what is out there?
...
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
"....... OBSERVATIONS ARE NOT OF THINGS": RICHARD CONN HENRY

This is a return to my pet subject Realism-Materialism versus Idealism. The common perception is that science supports the former worldview. This is a wrong perception. And this has great significance for understanding advaita too.

But Physicalists-materialists-philosophical naturalists hold that objective reality, often shortened to 'Reality', is the world external to the self. This external world is called nature or the realm of the physical sciences. Things and beings that exist as such in nature are supposed to be real.

Quantum Mechanics has now shown us that so-called measurements/observations are all contextual. I cite below five papers published in Nature, with links to full papers, that indicate that the so-called realism is not tenable.

a) The mental Universe : The Mental Universe

The author says "The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things."

In other words, the author points to the fact that the universe is our observation, but we forget the observation part and ascribe primacy to the 'observed'.

b) An experimental test of non-local realism | Nature : An experimental test of non-local realism | Nature

The authors conclude that giving up the concept of locality is not sufficient to be consistent with quantum experiments unless certain intuitive features of realism are abandoned.

In other words, the authors indicate that 'locality' and 'realism', the two axioms of Physicalsitic worldview, are untenable in light of results of their experiments.

c) Experimental non-classicality of an indivisible quantum system | Nature : Experimental non-classicality of an indivisible quantum system | Nature

The authors conclude "Our results illustrate a deep incompatibility between quantum mechanics and classical physics that cannot in any way result from entanglement.

Physicalists usually explain away the startling results of quantum mechanics by resorting to entanglement. This paper indicates that no non-contextual theory can be tenable -- there can be no a priori truth apart from the observation. All quantum theories are contextual and we surely constitute the most important context.

d) https://www.nature.com/articles/nphys3343.pdf?proof=true : Wheeler’s delayed-choice gedanken experiment with a single atom

Manning et al., conclude "Our experiment confirms Bohr’s view that it does not make sense to ascribe the wave or particle behaviour to a massive particle before the measurement takes place."

Wheeler’s supposition that a choice affects the ‘past history’ (of the photon) has been shown to be correct in past experiments using photon paths. In this paper, authors re-demonstrate with slow-moving massive helium atom what was already known for massless fast-moving photons that a future event (the method of detection) causes the photon (or the helium atom) to decide its past.

e) Quantum erasure with causally disconnected choice : Quantum erasure with causally disconnected choice

The paper recommends abandoning the ‘Realism’ worldview altogether, as no realistic picture is compatible with its results which hinge causally on disconnected choice.
...

So, it seems that science does not unequivocally endorse the philosophical stand that there is an objective reality 'out there'.
...

Intuitively, what could be more real than the awareness within which all objective reality is experienced? If we assume that all that we know is mediated by the electrochemical mechanism in brain, then we can never know the actual world out there. There is something out there and the brain shows you some pixelated 3D model. How do we ever know what is out there?
...
The first is not a paper but an opinion piece.
The problem is that all of this is actually more compatible with the Buddhist worldview where all things are emergent from the interconnected and conditioned interactions between them and one simply cannot say an object A has a property P. The more correct description is there is an interaction process in which objects A and B emerge with a set of properties P1 and P2. In all the papers you quoted you do not need observations, only interactions. Thus quantum mechanics suggests that it is interactions that are the ontological primitives and objects, object-properties etc. are derived from and emergent out of the ontologically primitive interaction-types.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
"....... OBSERVATIONS ARE NOT OF THINGS": RICHARD CONN HENRY

This is a return to my pet subject Realism-Materialism versus Idealism. The common perception is that science supports the former worldview. This is a wrong perception. And this has great significance for understanding advaita too.

But Physicalists-materialists-philosophical naturalists hold that objective reality, often shortened to 'Reality', is the world external to the self. This external world is called nature or the realm of the physical sciences. Things and beings that exist as such in nature are supposed to be real.

Quantum Mechanics has now shown us that so-called measurements/observations are all contextual. I cite below five papers published in Nature, with links to full papers, that indicate that the so-called realism is not tenable.

a) The mental Universe : The Mental Universe

The author says "The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things."

In other words, the author points to the fact that the universe is our observation, but we forget the observation part and ascribe primacy to the 'observed'.

b) An experimental test of non-local realism | Nature : An experimental test of non-local realism | Nature

The authors conclude that giving up the concept of locality is not sufficient to be consistent with quantum experiments unless certain intuitive features of realism are abandoned.

In other words, the authors indicate that 'locality' and 'realism', the two axioms of Physicalsitic worldview, are untenable in light of results of their experiments.

c) Experimental non-classicality of an indivisible quantum system | Nature : Experimental non-classicality of an indivisible quantum system | Nature

The authors conclude "Our results illustrate a deep incompatibility between quantum mechanics and classical physics that cannot in any way result from entanglement.

Physicalists usually explain away the startling results of quantum mechanics by resorting to entanglement. This paper indicates that no non-contextual theory can be tenable -- there can be no a priori truth apart from the observation. All quantum theories are contextual and we surely constitute the most important context.

d) https://www.nature.com/articles/nphys3343.pdf?proof=true : Wheeler’s delayed-choice gedanken experiment with a single atom

Manning et al., conclude "Our experiment confirms Bohr’s view that it does not make sense to ascribe the wave or particle behaviour to a massive particle before the measurement takes place."

Wheeler’s supposition that a choice affects the ‘past history’ (of the photon) has been shown to be correct in past experiments using photon paths. In this paper, authors re-demonstrate with slow-moving massive helium atom what was already known for massless fast-moving photons that a future event (the method of detection) causes the photon (or the helium atom) to decide its past.

e) Quantum erasure with causally disconnected choice : Quantum erasure with causally disconnected choice

The paper recommends abandoning the ‘Realism’ worldview altogether, as no realistic picture is compatible with its results which hinge causally on disconnected choice.
...

So, it seems that science does not unequivocally endorse the philosophical stand that there is an objective reality 'out there'.
...

Intuitively, what could be more real than the awareness within which all objective reality is experienced? If we assume that all that we know is mediated by the electrochemical mechanism in brain, then we can never know the actual world out there. There is something out there and the brain shows you some pixelated 3D model. How do we ever know what is out there?
...
I'll gladly drop a ballpeen hammer on one's big toe to demonstrate it's not real. *grin*

I think if you shrunk down in size to the quantum level, you would most certainly feel it like that hammer.
 

Martin

Spam, wonderful spam (bloody vikings!)
"....... OBSERVATIONS ARE NOT OF THINGS": RICHARD CONN HENRY

This is a return to my pet subject Realism-Materialism versus Idealism. The common perception is that science supports the former worldview. This is a wrong perception. And this has great significance for understanding advaita too.

But Physicalists-materialists-philosophical naturalists hold that objective reality, often shortened to 'Reality', is the world external to the self. This external world is called nature or the realm of the physical sciences. Things and beings that exist as such in nature are supposed to be real.

Quantum Mechanics has now shown us that so-called measurements/observations are all contextual. I cite below five papers published in Nature, with links to full papers, that indicate that the so-called realism is not tenable.

a) The mental Universe : The Mental Universe

The author says "The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things."

In other words, the author points to the fact that the universe is our observation, but we forget the observation part and ascribe primacy to the 'observed'.

b) An experimental test of non-local realism | Nature : An experimental test of non-local realism | Nature

The authors conclude that giving up the concept of locality is not sufficient to be consistent with quantum experiments unless certain intuitive features of realism are abandoned.

In other words, the authors indicate that 'locality' and 'realism', the two axioms of Physicalsitic worldview, are untenable in light of results of their experiments.

c) Experimental non-classicality of an indivisible quantum system | Nature : Experimental non-classicality of an indivisible quantum system | Nature

The authors conclude "Our results illustrate a deep incompatibility between quantum mechanics and classical physics that cannot in any way result from entanglement.

Physicalists usually explain away the startling results of quantum mechanics by resorting to entanglement. This paper indicates that no non-contextual theory can be tenable -- there can be no a priori truth apart from the observation. All quantum theories are contextual and we surely constitute the most important context.

d) https://www.nature.com/articles/nphys3343.pdf?proof=true : Wheeler’s delayed-choice gedanken experiment with a single atom

Manning et al., conclude "Our experiment confirms Bohr’s view that it does not make sense to ascribe the wave or particle behaviour to a massive particle before the measurement takes place."

Wheeler’s supposition that a choice affects the ‘past history’ (of the photon) has been shown to be correct in past experiments using photon paths. In this paper, authors re-demonstrate with slow-moving massive helium atom what was already known for massless fast-moving photons that a future event (the method of detection) causes the photon (or the helium atom) to decide its past.

e) Quantum erasure with causally disconnected choice : Quantum erasure with causally disconnected choice

The paper recommends abandoning the ‘Realism’ worldview altogether, as no realistic picture is compatible with its results which hinge causally on disconnected choice.
...

So, it seems that science does not unequivocally endorse the philosophical stand that there is an objective reality 'out there'.
...

Intuitively, what could be more real than the awareness within which all objective reality is experienced? If we assume that all that we know is mediated by the electrochemical mechanism in brain, then we can never know the actual world out there. There is something out there and the brain shows you some pixelated 3D model. How do we ever know what is out there?
...

There is a high degree of concensus on what we think is out there. So if it's an illusion, it's a shared illusion, or more accurately, a shared representation.
In any case, trying to "prove" Advaita with quantum mechanics is a fools errand, IMO, it ends up sounding new-agey. Even assuming that Advaita is meant to be understood as ontology.
 
Last edited:

Martin

Spam, wonderful spam (bloody vikings!)
I'll gladly drop a ballpeen hammer on one's big toe to demonstrate it's not real. *grin*

I think if you shrunk down in size to the quantum level, you would most certainly feel it like that hammer.

And at the human scale it is Newtonian rather than Quantum mechanics which shapes our experience.
 
Last edited:

Martin

Spam, wonderful spam (bloody vikings!)
The first is not a paper but an opinion piece.
The problem is that all of this is actually more compatible with the Buddhist worldview where all things are emergent from the interconnected and conditioned interactions between them and one simply cannot say an object A has a property P. The more correct description is there is an interaction process in which objects A and B emerge with a set of properties P1 and P2. In all the papers you quoted you do not need observations, only interactions. Thus quantum mechanics suggests that it is interactions that are the ontological primitives and objects, object-properties etc. are derived from and emergent out of the ontologically primitive interaction-types.

Yes, and the Buddhist teaching of "nothing existing from its own side" (sunyata) seems to reflect this.
In Advaita, consciousness is said to exist from it's own side, and to be the only "real" thing, whereas in Buddhism consciousness is said to be dependently arising.
 
Last edited:

atanu

Member
Premium Member
The first is not a paper but an opinion piece.
The problem is that all of this is actually more compatible with the Buddhist worldview where all things are emergent from the interconnected and conditioned interactions between them and one simply cannot say an object A has a property P. The more correct description is there is an interaction process in which objects A and B emerge with a set of properties P1 and P2. In all the papers you quoted you do not need observations, only interactions. Thus quantum mechanics suggests that it is interactions that are the ontological primitives and objects, object-properties etc. are derived from and emergent out of the ontologically primitive interaction-types.

I am surprised that you are still confused by the terms consciousness and awareness and how loosely they are used in order to not get bound in definitional quagmire. I will invite you humbly to please view this video.


Also, the basic premise of deep sleep yoga of Tibetan Buddhism is that deep sleep can be witnessed. So please do not get confused. If Buddha lost all awareness on enlightenment, he would not teach.

We may discuss over messaging, I believe.

 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I'll gladly drop a ballpeen hammer on one's big toe to demonstrate it's not real. *grin*

I think if you shrunk down in size to the quantum level, you would most certainly feel it like that hammer.

Haha. Have you ever copulated in a dream, btw. :D
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I am surprised that you are still confused by the terms consciousness and awareness and how loosely they are used in order to not get bound in definitional quagmire. I will invite you humbly to please view this video.


Also, the basic premise of deep sleep yoga of Tibetan Buddhism is that deep sleep can be witnessed. So please do not get confused. If Buddha lost all awareness on enlightenment, he would not teach.

We may discuss over messaging, I believe.

I am talking about what QM results show. It does not show that consciousness/awareness is necessary for reality with objects and properties to emerge. It shows a network of interconnected interactions is the source from which objects with properties emerge. These interactions do not need any conscious observer.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I am talking about what QM results show. It does not show that consciousness/awareness is necessary for reality with objects and properties to emerge. It shows a network of interconnected interactions is the source from which objects with properties emerge. These interactions do not need any conscious observer.

What you are imputing was not claimed. The post was about Realism versus Idealism. The post tried to show that contrary to popular view, there are serious questions about Realism.

I did not also raise any point on Buddhism versus Vedanta. I did not talk of consciousness either.

So.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I am surprised that you are still confused by the terms consciousness and awareness and how loosely they are used in order to not get bound in definitional quagmire. I will invite you humbly to please view this video.


Also, the basic premise of deep sleep yoga of Tibetan Buddhism is that deep sleep can be witnessed. So please do not get confused. If Buddha lost all awareness on enlightenment, he would not teach.

We may discuss over messaging, I believe.

I am not talking of the anatta doctrine. I am talking of the dependent origination doctrine. The latter does not need the anatta doctrine.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What you are imputing was not claimed. The post was about Realism versus Idealism. The post tried to show that contrary to popular view, there are serious questions about Realism.

I did not also raise any point on Buddhism versus Vedanta.

So.
Idealism has to show consciousness/awareness is the ontological primitive. The links of the papers you posted does not show that. It shows interaction events are ontologically primitive. So dependent origination is supported without saying anything much for or against idealism/physicalism.
I got confused. Thought you were saying the papers were evidence that idealism is true.
 

Martin

Spam, wonderful spam (bloody vikings!)
What you are imputing was not claimed. The post was about Realism versus Idealism. The post tried to show that contrary to popular view, there are serious questions about Realism.

I did not also raise any point on Buddhism versus Vedanta.

So.

It's clear from the last paragraph of your OP that you're promoting an Advaita view, and also clear that, as usual, you're trying to validate it with "science", while simultaneously rejecting the scientific viewpoint.
Have you anything new to say?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Idealism has to show consciousness/awareness is the ontological primitive. The links of the papers you posted does not show that. It shows interaction events are ontologically primitive. So dependent origination is supported without saying anything much for or against idealism/physicalism.
I got confused. Thought you were saying the papers were evidence that idealism is true.

Again, you are imputing what is not actually claimed in the OP. The question is on uncritical acceptance of Realism.

Please read the OP again. What do you understand of Henry’s saying that observations should not be conceptualised as things.
 
Last edited:

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Please read the OP again.
I agree with you that the traditional idea of realism as well defined objects having stable properties is not tenable in QM. The Vaisesika description is not fundamental. :)
There are however two other realisms still to go: Properties as primitives ( Samkhya), Events and Interactions as primitives (Abhidharma).

Then we have the three non-realist views. Abstract Structures are primitives ( Navya Nyaya), Mind/Consciousness as primitive ( Yogacara, Sankara's Vedanta) or there are no primitives ( Madhyamaka).

Lots to go. :)
 
Last edited:
Top