Occultism

[Jacksnyte]

I can sure try.

A mystic is the opposite of a sorcerer. A mystic utilizes mystical techniques to draw closer to God. A sorcerer steals those mystical techniques and uses them for personal gain, corrupting them.

For instance, take casting lots. The apostles cast lots to replace Judas, right? Casting lots is a form of Divination. Cleromancy. A mystic can use such Divination techniques to learn the will of God, but a sorcerer can steal those techniques to learn from satan. Then, in the hands of a Godless sorcerer, the Divination technique becomes "occult".

Casting lots is a form of gambling, not divination!

 

[Student of X]

Casting lots is a form of gambling, not divination!

Says who? Gamblor?

 

[InChrist]

I completely disagree with this and take offence to it. As a sorcerer I was driven to do what I do from a very young age. Why that is I consider to be a central mystery to my "religion". Not a "we keep a secret" mystery but rather a riddle which is contemplated and understood in various ways as one progresses in this life. It's not for everyone, nor is any path. Many who go to sorcery for the reasons you describe end themselves in one way or another.

[FONT=&quot]I am sorry to have offended you. I have no desire or intention to do so, but I realize that sometimes different perspectives can offend someone with another view. I have two questions for you, if you care to answer. What is your motivation or your reasons for practicing sorcery? What was it that drove you to practice sorcery from a very young age?[/FONT]

And as for 'feeling superior or more special than others' I might well point that out as being a central motivating factor in your own beliefs. Certainly in your use of large, shouty, typefaces. Here is the true impulse behind this desire to force everyone into your comfortable vision of reality with stories of hellfire and debate points drawn from that ridiculous book.

[/quote]

[FONT=&quot]My opinion of myself is that I am no better than anyone else. This is verified by the scriptures which state that all fall short of the glory of God. Everyone is a sinner and on the same level. I think that any person who looks honestly at their own life can see their wrong thoughts and behaviors. The Bible simply states that this separates us from God and that He made the way to deal with this problem. The only difference between you and me is that I have accepted God’s revealed remedy. This means I am saved, but it doesn’t mean I am superior. I cannot any claim credit for saving myself or say I have accomplished some higher spiritual insight or status on my own.[/FONT]

 

[InChrist]

InChrist:
You ignored the fact that by simply typing out your opinions you are practicing magick. Is God guiding your hand? Do you enter a deep state of prayer / meditation before typing and allow Him to speak through you? If not, which is the case, then you are practicing magick without the aide of God. Doesn't this mean that you are destined to hell? Hell or complete silence and isolation, never causing even the slightest change again.

[FONT=&quot]I’m not practicing magick and it sounds like nonsense to me that you would claim typing one's thoughts is magick as if it is a fact. I am rationally communicating through language and the written word thoughts and concepts. I am not sure how you equate that with magick. I don’t see any reasonable way to come to that conclusion.[/FONT]

 

[InChrist]

Whenever you pray for someone you are performing magic.

Jesus encouraged this btw.

Whenever you even suggest to a supernatural power (read: God) to affect reality in any way you are performing magic.

So, prayer is magic. Jesus did say, ask for what you wish and your father from heaven will provide. He got mad at people not having enough faith to recieve what they wished for (faith= magical power in this regard btw)

Jesus said that with enough faith one could move a mountain. This means moving natural means by supernatural force. This is called magic.

[FONT=&quot]As I have stated before prayer is not magic. Prayer is communication. When I pray for someone it is expressing my concern for that person to the Creator and trusting His wisdom and ability to deal with the situation in the best way. This is not me attempting to manipulate some impersonal force or energy according to my desired outcome…which is the essence of magick. I may have my desires, but I am trusting that God with His superior wisdom and love knows better than me, so I talk to Him about such concerns.[/FONT]

 

[Me Myself]

[FONT=&quot]As I have stated before prayer is not magic. Prayer is communication. [/FONT]

All communication ALWAYS is had with the expectance (conscious or subconscious) of an effect taking place because of said communication.

So you atre either consciously expecting something for your comunication, or you expect it subconsciously. Either way, any effect that you recieve after comunicating with a supernatural force can correctly be called magic.

"Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

Do you think he was lying? because he just described a (simple) magic ritual.

He said that ALL THINGS THAT YOU ASK IN PRAYER WHILE BELIEVING you WILL recieve.

If you didn´t recieved, you didn´t believed. OR Jesus lied.

Case being, that´s a form of magic. You contact a supernatural Power( "ask God") and then you recieve an effect.

About the "impersonal" part, that is not at all a requirement for magic. The only requierement is for it to be a supernatural force, if it has a personality has no impoact in it really. Least not according to Oxford dictionary.

 

[1137]

[FONT=&quot]I’m not practicing magick and it sounds like nonsense to me that you would claim typing one's thoughts is magick as if it is a fact. I am rationally communicating through language and the written word thoughts and concepts. I am not sure how you equate that with magick. I don’t see any reasonable way to come to that conclusion.[/FONT]

Magick is the science and act of causing change to occur in conformity with will. This is Crowley's definition which I find best, others have reworded it over and over. Pretty much everything we do is an act of magick. We did not know your views on occultism, you wanted us to, so you posted this and now we know your views on occultism. Change has occurred in conformity with will.

You should try and get at least the most basic understand of concepts you are going to argue against.

 

[1137]

Also, prayer is, in fact, a type of magick. You are causing change in conformity with will, first off. Even if God is answering your prayers and manifesting your wishes, you had to ask first. This is besides the point though. Magick is a psychological practice, changing the nature of our own subjective realities. So is prayer. Prayer working proves magick, and magick being true proves prayer false. Ironic, is it not? If someone is in the hospital and their church is praying for them, they may get better faster. This has absolutely nothing to do with any God though, only the symbolism. It is the act of believing that prayer is working that helps one heal, 100% psychological. Magick.

 

[InChrist]

I would be interested in further explanation of this expression you've used three times "conformity with will". What do you mean by this?

 

[InChrist]

All communication ALWAYS is had with the expectance (conscious or subconscious) of an effect taking place because of said communication.

So you atre either consciously expecting something for your comunication, or you expect it subconsciously. Either way, any effect that you recieve after comunicating with a supernatural force can correctly be called magic.

"Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

Do you think he was lying? because he just described a (simple) magic ritual.

He said that ALL THINGS THAT YOU ASK IN PRAYER WHILE BELIEVING you WILL recieve.

If you didn´t recieved, you didn´t believed. OR Jesus lied.

Case being, that´s a form of magic. You contact a supernatural Power( "ask God") and then you recieve an effect.

About the "impersonal" part, that is not at all a requirement for magic. The only requierement is for it to be a supernatural force, if it has a personality has no impoact in it really. Least not according to Oxford dictionary.

[FONT=&quot]Jesus was speaking to those who believed and trusted in God. He also said to pray/communicate according to the will of the Father God (Matt. 6:10), seeking His will, not their own. If prayers are outside of God’s will they are not answered (James 4:3) and if one has sin in their life God will not respond (Ps. 66:18). It is not as if one can say any prayer and automatically receive and answer or effect, as you put it. What Jesus was saying was that if one is following God’s will in faith and trusting His ability then even situations as big as mountains will be overcome. Magic on the other hand is an attempt to impose one’s own will in a given situation. Biblical “faith’ is not faith in one’s own ability to conjure up enough faith or power, but belief in the power of the Creator God alone. This kind of faith is faith and trust in God’s will, not one’s own. This is diametrically opposed to magic as is all of scripture. I take the authority of scripture over the Oxford dictionary.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted up the value of them, and it totaled fifty thousand pieces of silver. [/FONT]So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed. Acts 19:19-20

[FONT=&quot]‘Therefore thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against your magic charms by which you hunt souls there like birds. I will tear them from your arms, and let the souls go, the souls you hunt like birds. I will also tear off your veils and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall no longer be as prey in your hand. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Because with lies you have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and you have strengthened the hands of the wicked, so that he does not turn from his wicked way to save his life. Therefore you shall no longer envision futility nor practice divination; for I will deliver My people out of your hand, and you shall know that I am the Lord.”’”Ezekiel 13:20-23[/FONT]

 

[Me Myself]

[FONT=&quot]Jesus was speaking to those who believed and trusted in God.

A supernatural power, yeah.

[FONT=&quot]Jesus was speaking to those who believed and trusted in God. He also said to pray/communicate according to the will of the Father God (Matt. 6:10), seeking His will, not their own.

But if YOUR will is that this will comes to fruit then it is still magic when you pray for the effect of this will to happen.

[FONT=&quot]JIf prayers are outside of God’s will they are not answered (James 4:3) and if one has sin in their life God will not respond (Ps. 66:18). It is not as if one can say any prayer and automatically receive and answer or effect, as you put it. What Jesus was saying was that if one is following God’s will in faith and trusting His ability then even situations as big as mountains will be overcome.

Jesus was very clear when he used analogies, and that wasn´t one of those moments. When he used analogies he said "This is like *mountain you can move*" . This is because he could do unbelievable things.

He got mad at people who asked him to cure them because they had "little faith". How can they have little faith when they are asking him to cure them? Well, because they weren´t cured by their own praying or faith of course. Jesus said it "He who asks, recieves". There is also a passage when he got mad at someone before healing him (this was one instead of many). All of this was because Christ wanted us to trust on God and ourselves. "YOUR faith has healed you"

[FONT=&quot] Magic on the other hand is an attempt to impose one’s own will in a given situation.

Is it not your will that the will of God happens?

[FONT=&quot] Biblical “faith’ is not faith in one’s own ability to conjure up enough faith or power, but belief in the power of the Creator God alone.

Yes that is faith. And if you have enough of it you can move mountains.

[FONT=&quot] I take the authority of scripture over the Oxford dictionary.[/FONT]

scripture doesn´t have any authority over the english language. "Magic" means magic, and the Oxford dictionary has authority over the word. "Magic" is not even IN the bible, not the real one. Go look for the greek word for magic or the word used in the OT, but "magic" is what the Oxford says it is, and Christianity is definetely magic according to english language.

 

[Sylvan]

The image of magic charms hunting souls like birds is a good one. I'll have to re-read Ezekiel.

 

[1137]

I would be interested in further explanation of this expression you've used three times "conformity with will". What do you mean by this?

What did you not understand? You will something, magick accomplishes it. You can replace it with wish or prayer, Will is just a stronger world for the stronger form of magick IMO. For example, you willed (wished) to make this thread and you did so. Magick has been successful. How you accomplished said magick was

[FONT=&quot]rationally communicating through language and the written word thoughts and concepts.

[/FONT]

 

[Sylvan]

I am sorry to have offended you. I have no desire or intention to do so, but I realize that sometimes different perspectives can offend someone with another view. I have two questions for you, if you care to answer. What is your motivation or your reasons for practicing sorcery? What was it that drove you to practice sorcery from a very young age

Well if, as pointed out, you had any idea what you were talking about in terms of what sorcery is and what sorcerers do, this conversation would have gone a very different way. Were I to tell you my true opinion of the "spiritual condition" of most Christians I'm sure you'd find yourself quite offended so I keep that in the DIRs. And besides, many Christians here are open-minded and nice and I don't want to offend them. But, you know, I can't help but wonder why people on this board.. where there are clearly far more Christians than otherwise.. aren't jumping on this thread to defend your perspectives? Since you clearly represent the proper, clear, unambiguous Christian position on this subject. Which every Christian should hold to for fear of their eternal souls roasting in the fires of torment. Its curious.

As far back as I can remember as a child magical and ritual behaviors were the center of my private play. Mixing herbs from my garden into various little plastic pails and saying all this mumbo jumbo over them. Knowing that I was a witch was far easier and obvious than knowing that I was a homosexual. Actually discovering the Bible verses which condemned witches as abominations in Sunday school was really traumatizing to me because I knew that they were talking about me, and that I was the one who needed to be stoned to death. This is when I was maybe six or seven.

My opinion of myself is that I am no better than anyone else. This is verified by the scriptures which state that all fall short of the glory of God. Everyone is a sinner and on the same level....blah blah blah

That passive aggressive attitude writ large is why so many people find your bland of Christian to be the very personification of arrogance.

 

[InChrist]

What did you not understand? You will something, magick accomplishes it. You can replace it with wish or prayer, Will is just a stronger world for the stronger form of magick IMO. For example, you willed (wished) to make this thread and you did so. Magick has been successful. How you accomplished said magick was [/font][/size]

Well, this then clarifies that biblical prayer to the Creator of heaven and earth is not magick because human will does not control God. But, I do realize you have a different perspective and a different god. Besides that, because human will is limited there are some things it cannot accomplish. I see no connection between one’s will and magick.

 

[InChrist]

Well if, as pointed out, you had any idea what you were talking about in terms of what sorcery is and what sorcerers do, this conversation would have gone a very different way. Were I to tell you my true opinion of the "spiritual condition" of most Christians I'm sure you'd find yourself quite offended so I keep that in the DIRs. And besides, many Christians here are open-minded and nice and I don't want to offend them. But, you know, I can't help but wonder why people on this board.. where there are clearly far more Christians than otherwise.. aren't jumping on this thread to defend your perspectives? Since you clearly represent the proper, clear, unambiguous Christian position on this subject. Which every Christian should hold to for fear of their eternal souls roasting in the fires of torment. Its curious.

Those who trust Christ as their Savior have no reason to fear for their eternal souls.

As far back as I can remember as a child magical and ritual behaviors were the center of my private play. Mixing herbs from my garden into various little plastic pails and saying all this mumbo jumbo over them. Knowing that I was a witch was far easier and obvious than knowing that I was a homosexual. Actually discovering the Bible verses which condemned witches as abominations in Sunday school was really traumatizing to me because I knew that they were talking about me, and that I was the one who needed to be stoned to death. This is when I was maybe six or seven.

You didn't really answer my questions: What is your motivation or your reasons for practicing sorcery? What was it that drove you to practice sorcery from a very young age?

 

[1137]

Well, this then clarifies that biblical prayer to the Creator of heaven and earth is not magick because human will does not control God.

Well luckily that is not how prayer works. God, at least in this sense, does not exist, or prayer at least doen't work through him. I explained this. Prayer is an act of the mind. If someone knows they are being prayed for, and they believe in prayer, they can heal faster. This is them unconsciously working magick on themselves. It being unconscious is what makes it weaker. Why do you think only things of human capability come true? Unless you don't pray for peace, end to poverty, preservation of the environment.....

Besides that, because human will is limited there are some things it cannot accomplish.

Stop placing limits on yourself.

I see no connection between one’s will and magick.

Well if you are just going to reject the meaning of concepts this is completely meaningless to discuss. I've laid the definitions, logic, and proof and you still shun it. That is choosing to be ignorant, and that is nearly as "sinful" as you can be. Using your beliefs; god did not give us the ability to reason so we could be ignorant, nor (the illusion of) free will so we could be submissive slaves, nor identity so we could be selfless.

 

[InChrist]

Well luckily that is not how prayer works. God, at least in this sense, does not exist, or prayer at least doen't work through him. I explained this. Prayer is an act of the mind. If someone knows they are being prayed for, and they believe in prayer, they can heal faster. This is them unconsciously working magick on themselves. It being unconscious is what makes it weaker. Why do you think only things of human capability come true? Unless you don't pray for peace, end to poverty, preservation of the environment.....

This is not how biblical prayer works.

Stop placing limits on yourself.

Well, I doubt I would ever see you be able to will yourself to fly and then try jumping off a cliff without facing the consequences of breaking the law of gravity. God the Creator has set limits upon human will and ability.

Well if you are just going to reject the meaning of concepts this is completely meaningless to discuss. I've laid the definitions, logic, and proof and you still shun it. That is choosing to be ignorant, and that is nearly as "sinful" as you can be. Using your beliefs; god did not give us the ability to reason so we could be ignorant, nor (the illusion of) free will so we could be submissive slaves, nor identity so we could be selfless.

[/quote]

I' don't know that I am rejecting concepts or shunning anymore than you seem to be. We are just coming from completely different perspectives.

 

[Me Myself]

Well, I doubt I would ever see you be able to will yourself to fly and then try jumping off a cliff without facing the consequences of breaking the law of gravity. God the Creator has set limits upon human will and ability.

No shame on starting small

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v29clGMWU84&feature=related

 

[1137]

This is not how biblical prayer works.

I am fine with faith, it is necessary. But not when facts exist to the contrary. All prayer works this way, we can prove it, there are studies. Just because you find this truth uncomfortable changes nothing.

Well, I doubt I would ever see you be able to will yourself to fly and then try jumping off a cliff without facing the consequences of breaking the law of gravity. God the Creator has set limits upon human will and ability.

Gravity is a law of nature. We tie into natural as we spring from it and are a natural part of it. In this state, no I cannot fly. As I said, only realistic human prayers come through.

I' don't know that I am rejecting concepts or shunning anymore than you seem to be. We are just coming from completely different perspectives.

The definition of magick is the science and act of causing change to occur in conformity with will. You ignore this and it's implications because it logically and factually shows you are wrong. That's all well and good, just remember the truth doesn't rely on what you are most comfortable with.