Oddities of Various Purana-s

[Poeticus]

I am sure you can find it from the Maha Upanishad yourself.

And, I'm sure you'd be intellectually honest to admit the fact that the context of the verse in the MU differs from its colloquial usage in modern-day, Hindu-unversalistic notions.

Either way, the context of its usage in the MU is no longer mainstream - its derivation is only superficial and used for referencing. Rather, ironically, the context of its application from the Hitopadesha is the one that is currently extant.

For further reading regarding the irony of its current usage, click here.

And, coincidently, I believe the "mighty Wiki" elaborates my points a little further in laymen terms:

In the Mahopanishad - 6.72 the verses are used to describe as one of the attributes of an individual who has attained the highest level of spiritual progress, and one who is capable of performing his wordly duties without attachment to material possessions.
In the Panchatantra - 5.3.37, which is a collection of animal fables,the verse is uttered from the mouth of a declared fool who is killed by his naivety, suggesting it as a symbol of impracticality.
The Hitopadesha - 1.3.71 goes a step further, and not once but twice demonstrates its usage by sub-versionists, as well as tendency of the gullible to fall for it.

 

[Poeticus]

The travelling Arab historian El Bironi

Incorrect. It is generally accepted by historians that Biruni was Persian-Iranian, not Arab. This differentiation is a big deal to Persians and other Iranians, especially the Persians.

My progenitor has a verse in RigVeda and seventh mandala of RigVeda is ascribed to us, the Vasishthas.

No. It is not, Mr. Kamboja.

 

[Ravi500]

And, I'm sure you'd be intellectually honest to admit the fact that the context of the verse in the MU differs from its colloquial usage in modern-day, Hindu-unversalistic notions.

Actually, to be intellectually honest, I have never seen or understood the great phrase in any other sense than the so-called 'modern-day, Hindu-unversalistic notions'.

Various Hindu spiritual masters have also used in in the sense of the universalistic notions.

And I would also consider it to be true, knowing that love is the greatest spiritual virtue.

If you know of any other context in which it ought to be used, I am really interested in knowing it.

In the Mahopanishad - 6.72 the verses are used to describe as one of the attributes of an individual who has attained the highest level of spiritual progress, and one who is capable of performing his wordly duties without attachment to material possessions.

True, the enlightened master indeed sees the whole world as one family without distinctions of caste, creed, religion, nationality and other man-made labels.

And I am sure that is a worthy virtue to emulate.

 

[Poeticus]

Actually, to be intellectually honest, I have never seen or understood the great phrase in any other sense than the so-called 'modern-day, Hindu-unversalistic notions'.

Various Hindu spiritual masters have also used in in the sense of the universalistic notions.

And I would also consider it to be true, knowing that love is the greatest spiritual virtue.

I'll try to explain a little bit further:

The universalistic notions ascribed to the phrase in said question, even though scripturally it is anti-universalist and rather pro-vigilant, are socio-political. It is definitely not a Hindu "proverb".

If you know of any other context in which it ought to be used, I am really interested in knowing it.

How about the context in which it was found in the three scriptures or texts stated: MU, Panchatantra, and the Hitopadesha? This would enable all of us to stay true and honest to the contexts in which the phrase was applied, instead of misusing it.

However, I'm surprised that you indirectly expressed Hinduism as a religion, when it is far from such. Hinduism is a conglomeration of many schools of theological thought that are of the astika. Therefore, if you believe that "dharma" is a man-made label, whereas "one family" is not, then this becomes problematic because it is contradicting.

Which goes back to your earlier postings expressing the notion that Rishi-s of the Veda-s were above any such identification when that is false, nor is it supported by Shruti.

In fact, it's not really an astika notion at all.

True, the enlightened master indeed sees the whole world as one family without distinctions of caste, creed, religion, nationality and other man-made labels.

And I am sure that is a worthy virtue to emulate.

The notion or the idea of an "enlightened master", keyword being master, is also not substantiated astika-wise. Where are you getting the idea of a "master" from?

Even the Rishi-s of the Veda-s are subjected to the encompassing, universally transcending, concept of Rta-m.

The only "master" is thus: mahád devā́nām asuratvám ékam.

Supreme is the sole dominion of the Gods. (R.V.3.55)​

 

[Ravi500]

I'll try to explain a little bit further:

The universalistic notions ascribed to the phrase in said question, even though scripturally it is anti-universalist and rather pro-vigilant, are socio-political. It is definitely not a Hindu "proverb".

This is part of the upanishads, which definitely are not anti-universalist or a treatise in political science. It is the essence of the Vedas. The so-called socio-political stuff, you can find in the smritis, especially the outdated ones.

Also I have heard revered spiritual masters using this verse in the context of universality advocating love, compassion and acceptance of them all.

That is proof enough for me of its true context.

How about the context in which it was found in the three scriptures or texts stated: MU, Panchatantra, and the Hitopadesha? This would enable all of us to stay true and honest to the contexts in which the phrase was applied, instead of misusing it..

The MU indeed applies in the context which I mentioned.

However, I'm surprised that you indirectly expressed Hinduism as a religion, when it is far from such. Hinduism is a conglomeration of many schools of theological thought that are of the astika. Therefore, if you believe that "dharma" is a man-made label, whereas "one family" is not, then this becomes problematic because it is contradicting.

And how is that contradictory !!

Do you find human beings born with an attached label saying that they belong to this or that dharma , especially those of inter-religious marriages.

Which goes back to your earlier postings expressing the notion that Rishi-s of the Veda-s were above any such identification when that is false, nor is it supported by Shruti.

In fact, it's not really an astika notion at all.

So, why was an exception made in the case of Rishi Satyakama Jabala, even though he was the son of a prostitute who had no idea who his father was, thus showing that he was not of noble descent .

Why was he still taken by his guru as a disciple!

The notion or the idea of an "enlightened master", keyword being master, is also not substantiated astika-wise. Where are you getting the idea of a "master" from?

Even the Rishi-s of the Veda-s are subjected to the encompassing, universally transcending, concept of Rta-m.

The only "master" is thus: mahád devā́nām asuratvám ékam.

Supreme is the sole dominion of the Gods. (R.V.3.55)​

I got the idea of an enlightened master from my own Guru.

 

[Ravi500]

We are Saraswatas and have been in India probably even before Abrahamic Adam. My progenitor has a verse in RigVeda and seventh mandala of RigVeda is ascribed to us, the Vasishthas. Kashmris are not the only fair colored people in India, there are Punjabis, Himachalis, Uttarkhandis, and Haryanavis. Do you mean to say that all fair colored people in India are descendants of Jews? That would require more evidence than just your assertion.

Your ancestors were those of ancient Jewish tribes who settled down in Kashmir many centuries back,and quite probably adopted by the brahmins there.

Kashmris are not the only fair colored people in India, there are Punjabis, Himachalis, Uttarkhandis, and Haryanavis. Do you mean to say that all fair colored people in India are descendants of Jews? That would require more evidence than just your assertion.

I only mean that of Kashmiri people, which can be said to be homogenously of a very fair complexion.

The other states you mention have fair skinned and dark skinned people.Ajay Devgan, Manmohan Singh, both punjabis are also dark-skinned.

Kindly lead us to your sources for the jewish ancestory of Kashmiri brahmins or do you think an unsupported quote from El-bironi (normally it is spelled as al-Biruni) and a mention of genetics will be sufficient to establish this?

Kashmiri people have always been considered distinct from the rest of the peoples in India, complexion wise and due to their coloured hair as well.

This is mainly due to their jewish ancestry. Many of the places in Kashmir are also named similar to Jewish places. There are many links in internet in this regard.

When you take into account the genetic links as well which has come up , then this is more than enough proof .

Just take a look of Kashmiri chief Minister Omar Abdullah. His resemblance to jewish people is quite striking. Similarly with other kashmiris I have seen and met.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am sure you can find it from the Maha Upanishad yourself.

We discussed it a few days ago. It is from Panchatantra stories, when the wily fox tries to fool another creature by saying 'vasudhaiva kutukbakam', let us come together, so that I can eat you.
MaitraVarunih, who exposed the mystery has given you the links.

 

[Ravi500]

We discussed it a few days ago. It is from Panchatantra stories, when the wily fox tries to fool another creature by saying 'vasudhaiva kutukbakam', let us come together, so that I can eat you.

Don't worry. It is from the upanishads itself.

If it was from the panchatantra , it probably would not have passed the lips of spiritual masters.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No. It is not, Mr. Kamboja.

Family Āprī Ṛcas[23]
Angiras I.142 3619 (especially Mandala 6)
Kanva I.13 1315 (especially Mandala 8)
Vasishtha VII.2 1276 (Mandala 7)
Vishvamitra III.4 983 (Mandala 3)
Atri V.5 885 (Mandala 5)
Bhrgu X.110 473
Kashyapa IX.5 415 (part of Mandala 9)
Grtsamada II.3 401 (Mandala 2)
Agastya I.188 316
Bharata X.70 170 (Wikipedia - RigVeda)

You see, my gotra is 'Bhoota Upamanyu' which means 'the older Upamanyu'. Perhaps he was not a Kamboja. But, in Srimad Bhagawat Purana, Upamanyu, the Kamboja, blesses Lord Krishna. I do not know more than this. Yes, there is an ambiguity. Perhaps you or Jas can sort it out.

 

[Aupmanyav]

However, I'm surprised that you indirectly expressed Hinduism as a religion, when it is far from such. Hinduism is a conglomeration of many schools of theological thought that are of the astika. Therefore, if you believe that "dharma" is a man-made label, ..

Now, the 'nastikas' as well. 'Dharma', Social rules are surely man-made (since there are no Gods and Goddesses). All religions have sects and 'matas' (some 30,000 in christianity, I am told), so what if there are many views in Hinduism?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Your ancestors were those of ancient Jewish tribes who settled down in Kashmir many centuries back,and quite probably adopted by the brahmins there. This is mainly due to their jewish ancestry. Many of the places in Kashmir are also named similar to Jewish places. There are many links in internet in this regard.

When you take into account the genetic links as well which has come up, then this is more than enough proof. Just take a look of Kashmiri chief Minister Omar Abdullah. His resemblance to jewish people is quite striking. Similarly with other kashmiris I have seen and met.

Links please. It is the first time that I am hearing this. And what is your criteria lfor jewish features? All Central Asians and Iranians also have the same features. Are they too jews? Should we then say, that Jews populated the east and the west? Of course, the Israelis say this for Pushtoons, as they need fodder for their fight against the palestinians.

I only mean that of Kashmiri people, which can be said to be homogenously of a very fair complexion.

You think there are no darker-skinned kashmiri brahmins or muslims?

The other states you mention have fair skinned and dark skinned people.Ajay Devgan, Manmohan Singh, both punjabis are also dark-skinned.

It is the same in Kashmir also.

Kashmiri people have always been considered distinct from the rest of the peoples in India, complexion wise and due to their coloured hair as well.

Perhaps you consider them separate. We have been part and parcel of India all the time.

 

[Ravi500]

Links please. It is the first time that I am hearing this.

I have been hearing this a lot for many years, really . You can google and find the links in internet itself. It itself gives all the information to the questions you pose here.

You think there are no darker-skinned kashmiri brahmins or muslims?

There maybe a few kashmiris who may be just fair , but not like the ones of dark complexion like Ajay Devgan and so on.

You can say Kashmir is relatively homogenous in terms of fair complexion compared to the other states.

The information about the genetic links to the jews, which I got from kashmiris themselves, also wraps up the deductive process for me.

All Central Asians and Iranians also have the same features. Are they too jews?

If they have a history of jewish contact , and genetic links to the jews as well, I will have no hesitation in saying they have jewish blood as well. Jews are also white and caucasian.

Should we then say, that Jews populated the east and the west?

Ancient Jewish tribes entered India and settled in Kashmir and in mizoram as well. I got this info from Times of India. Also in internet as well.

Perhaps you consider them separate. We have been part and parcel of India all the time.

I don't consider anyone separate , as it would be contrary to my principles of universality and advaita.


Vasudeiva Kudumbakam -- The whole world is one family.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ancient Jewish tribes entered India and settled in Kashmir and in mizoram as well. I got this info from Times of India. Also in internet as well.

Well, Mizoram is a big joke. Some readings:

A total of 350 genetic samples were tested at Haifa's Technion – Israel Institute of Technology under the auspices of Prof. Karl Skorecki. According to the late Mizo research scholar Isaac Hmar Intoate, who was involved with the project, researchers found no genetic evidence of a Middle-Eastern origin for the Mizo-Chin-Kuki.

In December 2004, Kolkata's Central Forensic Science Laboratory posted a paper at Genome Biology on the Internet. They tested a total of 414 people from tribal communities of Mizoram (Hmar, Kuki, Mara, Lai and Lusei). They found no evidence among the men of Y-DNA haplotypes indicating Middle Eastern origin; rather, the haplotypes were of East and Southeast Asian origin. Among the 50 women whom they tested for MtDNA, they found some evidence of Middle Eastern origin, which may have been an indicator of intermarriage during their migration period. The paper did not undergo peer review.

In a reflection of the political aspects of the "discovery" of Lost Tribes and their "return" to Israel, the social scientist Lev Grinberg commented that "right wing Jewish groups wanted such conversions of distant people to boost the population in areas disputed by the Palestinians."
Bnei Menashe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Amishav organization noted that the absorption of the Bnei Menashe in Israel has been smooth, and that all its young men serve in combat units.
Bnei Menashe aliya halted by Poraz | Shavei.org

I have also read that the Mizos are really interested in migrating to Europe and N. America from Israel.

How come 'Rajatarangini', the best history of Kashmir does not mention Jews?

 

[Ravi500]

Well, Mizoram is a big joke. Some readings:

A total of 350 genetic samples were tested at Haifa's Technion – Israel Institute of Technology under the auspices of Prof. Karl Skorecki. According to the late Mizo research scholar Isaac Hmar Intoate, who was involved with the project, researchers found no genetic evidence of a Middle-Eastern origin for the Mizo-Chin-Kuki.

In December 2004, Kolkata's Central Forensic Science Laboratory posted a paper at Genome Biology on the Internet. They tested a total of 414 people from tribal communities of Mizoram (Hmar, Kuki, Mara, Lai and Lusei). They found no evidence among the men of Y-DNA haplotypes indicating Middle Eastern origin; rather, the haplotypes were of East and Southeast Asian origin. Among the 50 women whom they tested for MtDNA, they found some evidence of Middle Eastern origin, which may have been an indicator of intermarriage during their migration period. The paper did not undergo peer review.

In a reflection of the political aspects of the "discovery" of Lost Tribes and their "return" to Israel, the social scientist Lev Grinberg commented that "right wing Jewish groups wanted such conversions of distant people to boost the population in areas disputed by the Palestinians."
Bnei Menashe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Amishav organization noted that the absorption of the Bnei Menashe in Israel has been smooth, and that all its young men serve in combat units.
Bnei Menashe aliya halted by Poraz | Shavei.org

I have also read that the Mizos are really interested in migrating to Europe and N. America from Israel.

I remember reading something in the newspaper to the effect that most mizoramese jews were shifting to Israel. And there were also mention of the lost tribes of Israel, and hence it made an impression.

Checking in google, i would like to add the following as well.

While DNA is not used as a determinant of Jewish ancestry, it can be an indicator. Professor Skorecki said that the Kolkata geneticists "did not do a complete 'genetic sequencing' of all the DNA and therefore it is hard to rely on the conclusions derived from a `partial sequencing, and they themselves admit this."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnei_Menashe#cite_note-31 He added that

"the absence of a genetic match still does not say that the Kuki do not have origins in the Jewish people, as it is possible that after thousands of years it is difficult to identify the traces of the common genetic origin. However, a positive answer can give a significant indication."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnei_Menashe#cite_note-TudorYulia2006-32
​

BBC news reported, "[T]he Central Forensic Institute in Calcutta suggests that while the masculine side of the tribes bears no links to Israel, the feminine side suggests a genetic profile with Middle Eastern people that may have arisen through inter-marriage".


What I am bringing here to discussion , is that there is a topic related to the lost tribes of israel, very much alive enough to find mention in the media as well.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There are tribes in Japan also, which Israel claim as Jewish. There are groups which have gone from Peru to Israel. It is a failed recruitment drive by Israelis. Only about 2,000 Mizos have gone to Israel and I doubt if they all have remained in Israel.

 

[Ravi500]

There are tribes in Japan also, which Israel claim as Jewish. There are groups which have gone from Peru to Israel. It is a failed recruitment drive by Israelis. Only about 2,000 Mizos have gone to Israel and I doubt if they all have remained in Israel.

The issue is that Israel have been a turbulent place in the ancient past as well. Jesus was a Jew who got crucified by the Romans who also destroyed the Jewish temple from what I remember reading in a book.

There were many ancient Jewish tribes who migrated, and some settled in Kashmir and other places.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

What the heck does this Jewish tribe theory have to do with the thread? You can go get a kippa for aupamanyava over here, but that doesn't make him a Yehudi. Also, aren't most mizrahi jews generally dark haired, or are you insinuating that he's related to ashkenazis? Lol....

 

[Ravi500]

What the heck does this Jewish tribe theory have to do with the thread? You can go get a kippa for aupamanyava over here, but that doesn't make him a Yehudi. Also, aren't most mizrahi jews generally dark haired, or are you insinuating that he's related to ashkenazis? Lol....

It was in reference to one of his posts where he refers to his red-haired relative. I told him it can be because of his jewish ancestry. You can find the other points in my posts.

Aupmanyav ,even if he gets a kippa, will probably stay an atheist.


There are Jews also with all kind of hair colours. I am aware of a few blonde Jews myself.

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

*looks at the tread title*

*looks at all the last pages of posts*

This is the greatest tread derailement I have ever seen in my life xDD

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have been hearing this a lot for many years, really . You can google and find the links in internet itself. It itself gives all the information to the questions you pose here.

I have seen that. And I have copy-pasted the conclusions from Wikipedia in one of my posts. The reasons given are too weak. Migration from Central Asia is a better theory, that is immediate neighborhood.