Odin, Thor, Tyr and culture

[EyeofOdin]

I've always found fascinating the relationship between Odin, Thor and Tyr (whom I like to call the central gods of war or ruling Aesir) and heathen culture.

At first, Tyr was most popular as the sky father, representing morality, order and law. I think heathen culture at first was an Indo-European culture most valuing structure and traditional ethics. He later lost popularity to Odin, as the culture more valued magic and Thor as it more valued bravery and brute strength.

Today, as Thor was most popular for most of historical Germanic paganism, you'd think Thor would still be most honored. I've noticed most heathens today seem to prefer Odin, maybe implying at times that Thor is overrated.

I think the apparent focus on Odin today in Euro-American paganism has to do with our culture. Thor's a warrior and Odin's the inventor of all arts. Our culture isn't one that gives most honor to warriors, but to artists, making pop idols. Maybe Odin's simply more present in our communities, giving us art, intellect, knowledge and philosophy and Thor isn't because he isn't interested in arts, naturally.

 

[Jainarayan]

Popularity of the Gods probably does shift with the times.

 

[Nietzsche]

I've always found fascinating the relationship between Odin, Thor and Tyr (whom I like to call the central gods of war or ruling Aesir) and heathen culture.

At first, Tyr was most popular as the sky father, representing morality, order and law. I think heathen culture at first was an Indo-European culture most valuing structure and traditional ethics. He later lost popularity to Odin, as the culture more valued magic and Thor as it more valued bravery and brute strength.

Today, as Thor was most popular for most of historical Germanic paganism, you'd think Thor would still be most honored. I've noticed most heathens today seem to prefer Odin, maybe implying at times that Thor is overrated.

I think the apparent focus on Odin today in Euro-American paganism has to do with our culture. Thor's a warrior and Odin's the inventor of all arts. Our culture isn't one that gives most honor to warriors, but to artists, making pop idols. Maybe Odin's simply more present in our communities, giving us art, intellect, knowledge and philosophy and Thor isn't because he isn't interested in arts, naturally.

You have it a bit wrong. Odin was associated with magic & wisdom, yes, but he was also the God of Death, the God of War(more specifically the strategic, large-scale idea of war) and bestowed the Berzerk.

But the key way to explain why Thor was so popular is quite simple. He's the God & Protector of Thralls. Defender of Midgard & the commoner, not just the nobility. He gives good harvest, he commands the wind to grant safe & quick passage across the sea. The Peoples' God, basically.

Odin was who the warriors, nobles & skalds invoked to gain power to destroy their enemies, the wisdom to rule their realms, and the inspiration to recount in song the heroes of bygone times.

As for Tyr...I've never seen him referenced as a Sky-God. Law & Order yes, but a Sky-God? I do not think that's quite right.

 

[Whiterain]

You have it a bit wrong. Odin was associated with magic & wisdom, yes, but he was also the God of Death, the God of War(more specifically the strategic, large-scale idea of war) and bestowed the Berzerk.

But the key way to explain why Thor was so popular is quite simple. He's the God & Protector of Thralls. Defender of Midgard & the commoner, not just the nobility. He gives good harvest, he commands the wind to grant safe & quick passage across the sea. The Peoples' God, basically.

Odin was who the warriors, nobles & skalds invoked to gain power to destroy their enemies, the wisdom to rule their realms, and the inspiration to recount in song the heroes of bygone times.

As for Tyr...I've never seen him referenced as a Sky-God. Law & Order yes, but a Sky-God? I do not think that's quite right.

Well done, Nietzsche.

I believe we're technically supposed to worship Thor alone as the guardian of Midgard. However, people do look to the other Gods for their arts in various things like magic or alchemy, whom you would look to Odin for. That being said, that's not what he was initially known for, he opposed such things in the beginning, he changed a lot, but also has two persona's, the wanderer and the Chieftain.

Nietzsche is point on in explaining them though. But as I said, I believe we're supposed to worship Thor in a monotheistic fashion over the other Gods, except Baldur perhaps, worshipping him over all other Gods may be what they desire/ desired.

Baldur is also associated with Justice and, holy(?) court.

 

[Riverwolf]

You have it a bit wrong. Odin was associated with magic & wisdom, yes, but he was also the God of Death, the God of War(more specifically the strategic, large-scale idea of war) and bestowed the Berzerk.

Huh. I've always thought of Tyr as the God of strategic war for the sake of victory, with Odin being more the God of War in terms of pure enjoyment of war regardless of whether there's victory or defeat.

Though that could be me just listening to too much Manowar. ^_^

 

[Nietzsche]

Huh. I've always thought of Tyr as the God of strategic war for the sake of victory, with Odin being more the God of War in terms of pure enjoyment of war regardless of whether there's victory or defeat.

Though that could be me just listening to too much Manowar. ^_^

Odin is still "Pleasure in combat". Tyr is single-combat, honour-duels and the like. You can see this best exemplified in their weapons of choice.

Tyr wields the longsword Tyrfing, a weapon that is not terribly practical in large-scale combat between large groups.

However Odin wields Gungnir, a spear, a weapon that is only practical in large scale combat between many peope.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

As for Tyr...I've never seen him referenced as a Sky-God. Law & Order yes, but a Sky-God? I do not think that's quite right.

Tyr and other Germanic forms leads us to a proto-Germanic Tiwaz. This comes from a proto-Indo-European Dyeus (Pater) "Bright Father", which also gives Vedic Sanskrit Dyaus Pita, Greek Zeus (Pater), Latin Jupiter, Illyrian Deipatrous, etc. The rest are all associated with the sky, so one assumes Tiwaz was too.

The law and order bit leads to the battle: many thought of a battle as literally a trial, with the God of Justice giving victory to the right side (if there was one). Hence the use of champions to avoid a general engagement: Celts, early Romans, David & Goliath. Hence also the justification of duels and trial by combat.

The bit about Thor as a protector reminds me of the Norse noble who told his Christian king that he might try that god of his, so long as he could still have a quick word with Thor when he had to make the crossing to Iceland.

 

[Riverwolf]

Odin is still "Pleasure in combat". Tyr is single-combat, honour-duels and the like. You can see this best exemplified in their weapons of choice.

Tyr wields the longsword Tyrfing, a weapon that is not terribly practical in large-scale combat between large groups.

However Odin wields Gungnir, a spear, a weapon that is only practical in large scale combat between many peope.

Makes sense.

 

[EyeofOdin]

You have it a bit wrong. Odin was associated with magic & wisdom, yes, but he was also the God of Death, the God of War(more specifically the strategic, large-scale idea of war) and bestowed the Berzerk.

But the key way to explain why Thor was so popular is quite simple. He's the God & Protector of Thralls. Defender of Midgard & the commoner, not just the nobility. He gives good harvest, he commands the wind to grant safe & quick passage across the sea. The Peoples' God, basically.

Odin was who the warriors, nobles & skalds invoked to gain power to destroy their enemies, the wisdom to rule their realms, and the inspiration to recount in song the heroes of bygone times.

As for Tyr...I've never seen him referenced as a Sky-God. Law & Order yes, but a Sky-God? I do not think that's quite right.

I've been looking into PIE culture. Tyr comes from Tiwaz, God of war, justice and the sky, coming from Djews Phter, of order, the sky and oaths (whence Jupiter, Zeus and Dyaus Pitar).

Thor's changed little from PIE Tonaros (also called Perkwonos).

Odin I think had a name change. His minor title Irmin I think comes from PIE Xārjomēn, via Ermunaz, lord of oaths, the mind, magic, death but not war. War came later with the title Wodinaz. Caesar also, calling him Mercury, notes he is "inventor of all arts" in Bellum Gallicum.

I feel Odin at his core is truly lord of the arts and sciences, as well as oaths and death.

 

[Whiterain]

I've been looking into PIE culture. Tyr comes from Tiwaz, God of war, justice and the sky, coming from Djews Phter, of order, the sky and oaths (whence Jupiter, Zeus and Dyaus Pitar).

Thor's changed little from PIE Tonaros (also called Perkwonos).

Odin I think had a name change. His minor title Irmin I think comes from PIE Xārjomēn, via Ermunaz, lord of oaths, the mind, magic, death but not war. War came later with the title Wodinaz. Caesar also, calling him Mercury, notes he is "inventor of all arts" in Bellum Gallicum.

I feel Odin at his core is truly lord of the arts and sciences, as well as oaths and death.

I was waiting for someone to try and relate Caesar to AEsir. But there may be no correlation at all, it's something that came to my minds eye some time ago.

Odin was also a messenger that traveled the realms interacting with various mortals, making legends.

I do not like universalism though, related Gods to other Gods. I think many gods are intrinsic to their cultures not all coming from Sumeria. This Roman doing of people's sacred Gods and also the descendants of Gods, there are a few representing them now in the games.

So much is lost though do to the various conflicts. It's a good age to live in though, we aren't shackled into an ideology or religion, I still want to kill myself a little over Catholicism and it's nonsensical dogma and monotheism in general. We know the Jews are wrong, at least.

 

[EyeofOdin]

I was waiting for someone to try and relate Caesar to AEsir. But there may be no correlation at all, it's something that came to my minds eye some time ago.

Odin was also a messenger that traveled the realms interacting with various mortals, making legends.

I do not like universalism though, related Gods to other Gods. I think many gods are intrinsic to their cultures not all coming from Sumeria. This Roman doing of people's sacred Gods and also the descendants of Gods, there are a few representing them now in the games.

So much is lost though do to the various conflicts. It's a good age to live in though, we aren't shackled into an ideology or religion, I still want to kill myself a little over Catholicism and it's nonsensical dogma and monotheism in general. We know the Jews are wrong, at least.

Well that's one opinion. I feel that the ancient pagans were most likely universally syncretic. Obviously most disagree.

 

[Whiterain]

Well that's one opinion. I feel that the ancient pagans were most likely universally syncretic. Obviously most disagree.

There's nothing wrong with the idea. The Gods became indigenous to Cultures like the Celts and Norse and Greeks through eons of folklore.

There are dedicated temples to them in various cultures but there's not enough evidence to say that's where they originated.

The Indo-European roots may have also been a migration of the legends of these Deities, there's no evidence they were there with them at this point.

Like Newgrange in Ireland,

Newgrange - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a Neolithic or older temple some believe belonged to the Dagda, one of their Chief Gods and ancestors. But there's not a strong enough party trying to make it a fact. Celtic Myth in particular was ancestral, as was Norse myth.

If you believe these were real beings that that became myth they even say they travelled the world. It's going to be speculation indeterminately, but there
are people representing them as their Ancestors as well - which is something I believe in.


A lot of the temple's and things in Scandinavia were destroyed.

There are still a lot of statues and things but many of them were destroyed or defaced during the ages of enforced Christianity.

They also lost Donar's Oak, wherever that was would still be standing. It's a place Tor physically met with people, I read once.


A lot of the Greek and Roman stuff made it into the Vatican's Museum on the up side..


I'm not saying it's not syncretic, I'm not sure what the truth is! I like to think the Gods are partly indigenous to various cultures.

 

[EyeofOdin]

There's nothing wrong with the idea. The Gods became indigenous to Cultures like the Celts and Norse and Greeks through eons of folklore.

There are dedicated temples to them in various cultures but there's not enough evidence to say that's where they originated.

The Indo-European roots may have also been a migration of the legends of these Deities, there's no evidence they were there with them at this point.

Like Newgrange in Ireland,

Newgrange - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a Neolithic or older temple some believe belonged to the Dagda, one of their Chief Gods and ancestors. But there's not a strong enough party trying to make it a fact. Celtic Myth in particular was ancestral, as was Norse myth.

If you believe these were real beings that that became myth they even say they travelled the world. It's going to be speculation indeterminately, but there
are people representing them as their Ancestors as well - which is something I believe in.


A lot of the temple's and things in Scandinavia were destroyed.

There are still a lot of statues and things but many of them were destroyed or defaced during the ages of enforced Christianity.

They also lost Donar's Oak, wherever that was would still be standing. It's a place Tor physically met with people, I read once.


A lot of the Greek and Roman stuff made it into the Vatican's Museum on the up side..


I'm not saying it's not syncretic, I'm not sure what the truth is! I like to think the Gods are partly indigenous to various cultures.

See this was a conversation in this thread I was trying to NOT get into

 

[Whiterain]

Ya, not get into it. It's kind of pathetic. People's devotions are elsewhere.

Donar's Oak though, That really really really really really pisses me off. Because this Oak would still be standing today.