Ohh so it really is spontaneous generation?

[Sonic247]

Ok so over billions and billions of years things mixed together and became self replicating: So it's not spontaneous generation because it took billions of years. Well okay it wasn't alive, but then it was so still at some point there had to be that transition and BAM! it's alive. But then that makes you think, are you really alive at all. What makes something alive. I mean we are all matter right, how do thoughts exsist within matter, are your thoughts also matter. Or a combination of matter and energy where you can project images and see them with you minds eye. I mean there was no life so what were the forces that eventually brought about human life, wind, gravity, tides etc. These are what shaped the matter into a self-replicating cell. Well it's fine if you believe that but because no one knows how that could happen would you at least admit that it takes a certain degree of faith?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I don't understand the question - does what take a certain degree of faith?

 

[Sonic247]

The origin of life, whether you believe in God or not. Or more specifically the first one celled organisms from non-living matter.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok so over billions and billions of years things mixed together and became self replicating: So it's not spontaneous generation because it took billions of years. Well okay it wasn't alive, but then it was so still at some point there had to be that transition and BAM! it's alive.

I don't think there's that clear-cut a distinction between life and non-life. For example, take viruses: are they alive? By some definitions, yes, but by others no.

 

[Sonic247]

Right, that is probably would be the closest to that thin line if such a line exists. But then there is not really life and non-life at all. What are things that make something classified as alive anyway? Is there some sort of official list?

 

[Mister Emu]

Yes there is a list...
Homeostasis
Reproduction
Adaption
Growth
Metabolism
Organization
Response to stimuli

 

[linwood]

Well it's fine if you believe that but because no one knows how that could happen would you at least admit that it takes a certain degree of faith?

Takes no faith at all for the person who simply says..

"I don`t know how everything came to be."

 

[Sonic247]

That's true. Do you have a theory at all, or do you just not really think about it that much?

 

[Sonic247]

Yes there is a list...
Homeostasis
Reproduction
Adaption
Growth
Metabolism
Organization
Response to stimuli

That's what I was looking for thanks.

 

[Willamena]

Takes no faith at all for the person who simply says..

"I don`t know how everything came to be."

Sure it does: they have faith in their ignorance.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Greetings

Well it's fine if you believe that but because no one knows how that could happen would you at least admit that it takes a certain degree of faith?

Sure, it requires faith to believe anything. If you had no faith at all you would be incredibly unequipped to survive. Although it depends what you mean by 'faith'.
Faith, for me, means that something that is unprovable has to be believed purely on the basis that the statement is true.
Trust, for me, means that something that is provable, but has not been proven to the subject, has to be believed because the knowledge behind it is non-existent or not understood by the subject.
So I guess, because I believe that it can be proven using science that we commonly consider to be 'the truth about science', it's not faith, just trust. I believe that we will one day figure it out in terms of science and maths. But until then, we just gotta belive.

I mean we are all matter right, how do thoughts exsist within matter, are your thoughts also matter. Or a combination of matter and energy where you can project images and see them with you minds eye. I mean there was no life so what were the forces that eventually brought about human life, wind, gravity, tides etc.

One of the key parts to my belief is that Mass and Energy are interchangable, and that neither energy nor matter cannot be destroyed. In that respect, (Base 1) we are simply a variable energy level contained within a variable mass level.
Life is not needed for wind, gravitation, tidal force (Which is also gravitation). Thoughts are just a combination of energy, mass and Aeya, just like everything else.

GhK.

 

[jakedavid91]

Ok so over billions and billions of years things mixed together and became self replicating: So it's not spontaneous generation because it took billions of years. Well okay it wasn't alive, but then it was so still at some point there had to be that transition and BAM! it's alive. But then that makes you think, are you really alive at all. What makes something alive. I mean we are all matter right, how do thoughts exsist within matter, are your thoughts also matter. Or a combination of matter and energy where you can project images and see them with you minds eye. I mean there was no life so what were the forces that eventually brought about human life, wind, gravity, tides etc. These are what shaped the matter into a self-replicating cell. Well it's fine if you believe that but because no one knows how that could happen would you at least admit that it takes a certain degree of faith?

im assuming your asking the question of how could everything of come about without a creator/god at the beginning of time? that was a confusing read sorry

It could be argued that it is just as unthinkable to believe in an all powerful being that created the Earth, a being like superman?

 

[linwood]

That's true. Do you have a theory at all, or do you just not really think about it that much?

I`ve thought about it quite a bit.

I`ve just decided there`s a lack of evidence to support any hypothesis at this point.

I`ll alter my views as new evidence comes to light.

 

[linwood]

Sure it does: they have faith in their ignorance.

Ignorance requires no faith, especially the ignorance you have personal knowledge of.

 

[Nepenthe]

Ok so over billions and billions of years things mixed together and became self replicating: So it's not spontaneous generation because it took billions of years. Well okay it wasn't alive, but then it was so still at some point there had to be that transition and BAM! it's alive. But then that makes you think, are you really alive at all. What makes something alive. I mean we are all matter right, how do thoughts exsist within matter, are your thoughts also matter. Or a combination of matter and energy where you can project images and see them with you minds eye. I mean there was no life so what were the forces that eventually brought about human life, wind, gravity, tides etc. These are what shaped the matter into a self-replicating cell. Well it's fine if you believe that but because no one knows how that could happen would you at least admit that it takes a certain degree of faith?

It pains me to quote your post but I had to point out that spontaneous generation and abiogenesis are completely different concepts. Abiogenesis is the scientific study of how life originated, while spontaneous generation is the discredited notion that life sprang from non-living matter- an idea that was criticized as far back as the 17th century.

The major difference is abiogenesis studies how organic molecules are inherently attracted to form more and more complex chains which have led to the formation of life. It's a fascinating field; I suggest you actually read something about it.

 

[idea]

Ok so over billions and billions of years things mixed together and became self replicating...

says who? Abiogenists is totally unproven...

The origins debate is pointless.

There is no origin.

"if failure attends all of our efforts to obtain a generation of organisms from lifeless matter, it seems to me a thoroughly correct scientific procedure to inquire whether there has ever been an origination of life, or whether it is not as old as matter..." (2). - Hermann von Helmholtz

[SIZE=-1]I have been looking for spontaneous generation during twenty years without discovering it. No, I do not judge it impossible.... You place matter before life, and you decide that matter has existed for all eternity. How do you know that the incessant progress of science will not compel scientists... to consider that life has existed during eternity and not matter? - Louis Pasteur [/SIZE]

The Beginning. by Brig Klyce

spontaneous generation is ... discredited

 

[rojse]

says who? Abiogenists is totally unproven...

The origins debate is pointless.

There is no origin.

"if failure attends all of our efforts to obtain a generation of organisms from lifeless matter, it seems to me a thoroughly correct scientific procedure to inquire whether there has ever been an origination of life, or whether it is not as old as matter..." (2). - Hermann von Helmholtz

[SIZE=-1]I have been looking for spontaneous generation during twenty years without discovering it. No, I do not judge it impossible.... You place matter before life, and you decide that matter has existed for all eternity. How do you know that the incessant progress of science will not compel scientists... to consider that life has existed during eternity and not matter? - Louis Pasteur [/SIZE]

The Beginning. by Brig Klyce

Now you are through mentioning ancient science, how about some quotes within, say, the last decade or two?

 

[Sonic247]

It pains me to quote your post but I had to point out that spontaneous generation and abiogenesis are completely different concepts. Abiogenesis is the scientific study of how life originated, while spontaneous generation is the discredited notion that life sprang from non-living matter- an idea that was criticized as far back as the 17th century.

The major difference is abiogenesis studies how organic molecules are inherently attracted to form more and more complex chains which have led to the formation of life. It's a fascinating field; I suggest you actually read something about it.

Well in both of those life did come from non-living matter,

Abiogenesis is the scientific study of how life originated

If life had an origin then it came from non-life, otherwise it came from life that previously had an origin.

spontaneous generation is the discredited notion that life sprang from non-living matter

Then abiogenesis is the notion that life slowly crawled from non-living matter.

 

[idea]

otherwise it came from life that previously had an origin.

another otherwise is that it eternally exists.... not generation after generation after generation, entities with no origin and no end...

Was there ever a time of nothingness? Does anything have an ultimate origin?

Seems to me the laws of thermo say no - conservation principles and all that:
Laws of thermodynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
see the first law...

You don't get something from nothing, so there must have always been something... I have no quelms about that something changing forms... but as far as origins? There is no origin. Life has to have an origin? What about eternal life? What is wrong with the idea that some life forms might not have a beginning or an end? You can't get something from nothing, nor can you make something into nothing. A self-existing entity has no origin and cannot be destroyed. Why can't life be self-existing? eternally existing life seems to be the simplest solution to me. I don't think any life had an origin, nor do I think any life will have an end...

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee... - Jeremiah1:5
Our birth was not our beginning, we have no beginning.


Hebrew Word Studies
The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth.


Everything is being formed, not created...


Ex nihilo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ex nihilo - out of nothing
creatio ex materia - creation out of eternally pre-existent matter
creatio ex deo creation out of thebeing of God

ex nihilo makes no sense to me.

what is wrong with pre-existent (pre what?) matter containing life?

~~~~~~~
Abiogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
abiogenesis, or origin of life, is the study of how life on Earth could have arisen from inanimate matter

Evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
evolution is change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next.

 

[Sonic247]

It can, I'm not talking about all that. All I'm saying is there is a limited number of options.
a) Life is eternal. b) Life came from non-living matter.
If life exists at all, whatever proccess the non-living matter went through there had to be that critical point: It's not alive right now.... okay now it's living: Spontaneous generation.
from Wikapedia- Abiogenesis

On the other hand, the exact sequence of chemical events that led to the first nucleic acids is not known.

It is not not known, but you can still have faith that it happened. My other point is, it does take faith to believe it happened. And that is just for nucleic acid.