Omnipotence Paradox and God's Limitations

[MJFlores]

In what world we are is not relevant. We have

1] we lie all the time; your claim
2) ergo, lying is logically (and even nomologically) possible, because of 1)
3) God cannot lie: your claim
4) ergo, there is at least one X, such that X is logically possible and cannot be done by God. Because of 2) and 3)
5) omnipotence entails the ability to do everything (that is logically possible)
6) ergo, God is not omnipotent. Because of 4) and 5)

Simple. The claim that God is omnipotent and cannot lie, are logically exclusive.

Your call.

Ciao

- viole

om·nip·o·tence
/ämˈnipədəns/
noun
noun: omnipotence; plural noun: omnipotences
the quality of having unlimited or very great power.

Definition of OMNIPOTENT
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Dictionary#dobs=omnipotence


viole dictionary: omnipotence entails the ability to do everything (that is logically possible)

So it was not Omnipotence at all.

 

[dybmh]

I realized there is another flaw in the OP's logic.

The OP makes the assumption that God is limited by time.

But since God as described in the OP is Omnipotent, then God is not limited by time.

Once this **assumed** restriction of time is lifted then a person can easily answer the question:

"Can an omnipotent god create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?"

Both Yes and No.

An Omnipotent God is not limited by time.

Because of this, answering "Both Yes and No" is a perfectly valid answer without a paradox, hypocrisy, and without logical incoherence.

 

[viole]

om·nip·o·tence
/ämˈnipədəns/
noun
noun: omnipotence; plural noun: omnipotences
the quality of having unlimited or very great power.

Definition of OMNIPOTENT
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Dictionary#dobs=omnipotence


viole dictionary: omnipotence entails the ability to do everything (that is logically possible)

So it was not Omnipotence at all.

So, it is unlimited or very great power? The two things differ by an unbounded number of orders of magnitude. Ergo, they are useless as a definition.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Deeje]

why would God willingly create a paradox?

What paradox do you see?

 

[Deeje]

Your hatred and mockery, deliberate misunderstanding and misrepresentation of science because it actually attempts to discover the working of the natural world rather that taking the unquestioning word of bronze age authors of your faith is not my problem

I have no hatred of science.....what I dislike is the attitude of those who worship it. Atheists use science to discredit God and attempt to make him disappear in the minds of those easily led by suggestions as to how accurate scientific knowledge really is. It is as sound as tomorrow's new discovery.

Why else would avowed atheists frequent religious forums unless they had a religion of their own to promote? I often wonder if they need to do this to continue to convince themselves that they will never have to account to this Being that they want to make redundant...?

You ate thinking on much to small a scale,. I cannot educate you on that if you refuse to be educated. Needless to say you should study the orbits of spacial bodies to see how disorganised they are

Precise?

Yes....what goes on in our solar system is very precise. What goes on "out there" beyond, is of no concern to us at present. The thing is, when you see governments spending billions of dollars on space exploration when millions of inhabitants of our own planet are starving to death, dying of preventable diseases, and getting fat off other people's misery, it makes you wonder about the incredible selfishness of those who use the scientific community in wasting money that could be better spent on the more important issues. Why should we care about "outer space" if we can't even govern our "inner space" on this planet successfully?

Yet the only way for god to have done it is with magic so hypocrisy is a rule of god?

You already know the magnitude of the power required to bring the universe into existence but you cannot imagine that an unknown and unseen entity produced it? You see intelligence demonstrated everywhere in nature but you are sure that it all just came about by accident....random chance? Is that really an intelligent conclusion?

And there lies the problem. Do you use an abacus or a computer to post on RF?

I see technology as a product of human intelligence.....I also see human intelligence as a product of the Creator. You seem to think it was just all a big fluke. No direction or intelligence required beyond man's......which is highly questionable when you see what he has done with all his cleverness.

Mother Earth is choking on science. Why is science so good at creating the things that will lead to our extinction? I am glad that I don't have to rely on science to give me a future.

Creation of man and woman??? Impossible and contradictory

Reproduction without male and female being formed similtaneously......impossible and contradictory. Multiply that by the millions of species in existence who all had to evolve as male and female simultaneously....? Ridiculous!

[Talking snakes and donkeys??? Impossible[/quote]

They can teach chimps to speak in sign language.
Are there things in the invisible realm that science cannot test for?
How do you know that there are not beings in existence that can make any creature speak.....or could speak through them? Ventriloquists do it all the time.
We are not alone here.

Samsons magic hair??? Impossible

There was nothing "magic" about Samson's hair. It was a requirement of his role as a Nazarite. Cutting his hair robbed him of his abilities because he took an unbelieving Philistine woman as a wife. She betrayed him and he lost God's backing. As a last act of service to his God however, Samson was able to demolish the Philistine's temple along with its idol god and its worshippers, to show those heathens who the true God was.

Pillar of salt??? Impossible

Who said it had to be literal salt? She had just witnessed what could well have been a nuclear explosion. She was told not to look back....but she disobeyed...and payed the price.

Noahs ark??? Impossible and proven not to have occured

Who says? Science is rather notorious for burying things that don't agree with its conclusions. I believe that there is evidence for a global flood. There was a thread put up some time ago on this topic. You don't have to believe it....but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Why are scientists warning about global warming? They created it, but now because the polar ice caps are melting, the threat of inundation is a real possibility. The earth will again be flooded.

Virgin birth??? Impossible and contradictory.

Are you serious? Even human biologists can make a virgin pregnant. They can even clone a living copy of any creature without sexual contact at all. You think it would be impossible for the Creator of life to implant a life that he created, in a virgin? I love the way people put limits on the Creator as if he was human. I assure you, he is not. Science was about 2,000 years behind.

It was all they knew at the time, knowledge has increased in so many ways, the bible has not changed.

Knowledge has increased in all aspects of human life as we would expect.....look how long it's taken us to get where we are now. But science has not invalidated the Bible in any way....'denial' is not 'proving' that the Bible is wrong....because what science doesn't know, cannot be measured. The truth is, that science can't admit that it isn't as knowledgable as it likes to think it is. What it "knows" would be equivalent to the full stop at the end of this sentence, compared to what there is still to find out.

 

[MJFlores]

So, it is unlimited or very great power? The two things differ by an unbounded number of orders of magnitude. Ergo, they are useless as a definition.

Ciao

- viole

When we looked for a definition of a term.
What do we do?
Do we twist things to suit our agenda?
Or do we look things up in the dictionary.

 

[Milton Platt]

Love, trust, and friendship cannot be measured or weighed in an objective scientific manner. Does this mean that love, trust, and friendship are not real?

those things are concepts. the poster was not addressing concepts.

 

[dybmh]

those things are concepts. the poster was not addressing concepts.

I see your point, but I respectfully disagree.

The poster was trying to prove that God did not exist because God could not be weighed and measured.

The poster said:

Yet reality can be measured and weighed.

For a god, omnipotent or otherwise, it would need to exist before it can be measured and weighed

hyperlink >>> Page 3 Post #53

Except, the poster clearly believes that Love is real even though that belief is not based on science, it is based on intuition and personal experience.

The poster said:

To me love, friendship, trust are binary

hyperlink >>> Page 7 Post #128

Saying they "are" means they exist, they are real. Love, trust, friendship, are real, to the poster.

But, they are not objective. They are subjective to the poster. Love, friendship, and trust are subjective **and** real.

And then I asked:

Is this based on science?

And the poster replied:

Not sure there is any science on the subject

hyperlink >>> Page 7 Post #133

So... originally the poster claims that in order for something to exist it has to be able to weighed or measured.

But, the poster believes that Love, Trust, and Friendship exist without applying the same scrutiny.

The poster believes that these concepts exist in a real way, even though they cannot be weighed or measured.

So using the test of "can God be weighed and measured" is invalid for disproving that a God exists.

Further:

If you scroll back to page 2 of this thread, an honest assessment of the poster's tone will show that the poster was making fun of anyone who believes in an Omnipotent God by making a false equivalence.

The poster was implying that belief in an Omnipotent God is similar to believing:

god dun it wiv god magic

But but if you can come up with something that can actually account for god magic that [cannot] be objectively falsified i (and millions of others) would be all ears.

hyperlink >>> page 2 Post #33

But Abrahamic Monotheists don't believe in "magic". The implication is insulting and it is teasing. It is figuratively pointing a finger at people who believe in God and saying, "Look how stupid they are, they believe in God Magic."

The intentional misspelling shows that the poster was teasing.

Believing in God is no different than believing in Love, Trust, Friendship, Beauty, Competition, Team Work, Will Power, Understanding, Peace, etc....

Many many people believe in the concepts above.
Many many people believe in God.

People believe that the concepts above exist based on subjective experiences and intuition.
People believe that God exists based on subjective experiences and intuition.

The concepts above cannot be weighed and measured objectively by science.

The poster implied that God doesn't exist because it cannot be weighed and measured yet admitted that they themselves do not hold their own beliefs to the same scrutiny. It's hypocritical.

It would be different if the fault were made in a polite professional manner. But by including the God Magic claim, the poster invited scrutiny on their own logic.

The poster implied that belief in God is silly because it cannot be weighed or measured.

It's an invalid test.

And it's hypocritical.

And, I'm sorry, this is a debate.

Pointing out hypocrisy, faulty logic, and false equivalency is fair to do. Atheists do it to Theists all the time. Honestly it's the theme of this thread. It's about paradox.

In a way, I have presented an Atheist Paradox.

Can an Atheist believe in Love, Trust, and Friendship while at the same time criticizing the belief in God without being a hypocrite? I don't know.

...

Believing that God exists is **not** equivalent to believing "God-Magic".

It's not silly to believe that God exists. That is what the poster was implying.

 

[ChristineM]

I have no hatred of science.....what I dislike is the attitude of those who worship it. Atheists use science to discredit God and attempt to make him disappear in the minds of those easily led by suggestions as to how accurate scientific knowledge really is. It is as sound as tomorrow's new discovery.

Why else would avowed atheists frequent religious forums unless they had a religion of their own to promote? I often wonder if they need to do this to continue to convince themselves that they will never have to account to this Being that they want to make redundant...?

Yes....what goes on in our solar system is very precise. What goes on "out there" beyond, is of no concern to us at present. The thing is, when you see governments spending billions of dollars on space exploration when millions of inhabitants of our own planet are starving to death, dying of preventable diseases, and getting fat off other people's misery, it makes you wonder about the incredible selfishness of those who use the scientific community in wasting money that could be better spent on the more important issues. Why should we care about "outer space" if we can't even govern our "inner space" on this planet successfully?

You already know the magnitude of the power required to bring the universe into existence but you cannot imagine that an unknown and unseen entity produced it? You see intelligence demonstrated everywhere in nature but you are sure that it all just came about by accident....random chance? Is that really an intelligent conclusion?

I see technology as a product of human intelligence.....I also see human intelligence as a product of the Creator. You seem to think it was just all a big fluke. No direction or intelligence required beyond man's......which is highly questionable when you see what he has done with all his cleverness.

Mother Earth is choking on science. Why is science so good at creating the things that will lead to our extinction? I am glad that I don't have to rely on science to give me a future.

Reproduction without male and female being formed similtaneously......impossible and contradictory. Multiply that by the millions of species in existence who all had to evolve as male and female simultaneously....? Ridiculous!

Talking snakes and donkeys??? Impossible

They can teach chimps to speak in sign language.
Are there things in the invisible realm that science cannot test for?
How do you know that there are not beings in existence that can make any creature speak.....or could speak through them? Ventriloquists do it all the time.
We are not alone here.



There was nothing "magic" about Samson's hair. It was a requirement of his role as a Nazarite. Cutting his hair robbed him of his abilities because he took an unbelieving Philistine woman as a wife. She betrayed him and he lost God's backing. As a last act of service to his God however, Samson was able to demolish the Philistine's temple along with its idol god and its worshippers, to show those heathens who the true God was.



Who said it had to be literal salt? She had just witnessed what could well have been a nuclear explosion. She was told not to look back....but she disobeyed...and payed the price.



Who says? Science is rather notorious for burying things that don't agree with its conclusions. I believe that there is evidence for a global flood. There was a thread put up some time ago on this topic. You don't have to believe it....but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Why are scientists warning about global warming? They created it, but now because the polar ice caps are melting, the threat of inundation is a real possibility. The earth will again be flooded.



Are you serious? Even human biologists can make a virgin pregnant. They can even clone a living copy of any creature without sexual contact at all. You think it would be impossible for the Creator of life to implant a life that he created, in a virgin? I love the way people put limits on the Creator as if he was human. I assure you, he is not. Science was about 2,000 years behind.



Knowledge has increased in all aspects of human life as we would expect.....look how long it's taken us to get where we are now. But science has not invalidated the Bible in any way....'denial' is not 'proving' that the Bible is wrong....because what science doesn't know, cannot be measured. The truth is, that science can't admit that it isn't as knowledgable as it likes to think it is. What it "knows" would be equivalent to the full stop at the end of this sentence, compared to what there is still to find out.

I am not going to quote passages, too much for my dyslexic eyes yo handle so have responded to each paragraph in turn.

Atheists dont need science to deny god, as for discredit? How do you discredit a myth? You have your faith, if discussion wobbles that faith (scientific or factual) then the problem is with your faith, not science or fact.

For conversation, to try to understand what drives people to believe in fairy tales, to try to educate, as retaliation for the thousands of years abuse and lies handed to atheists by the religious. There are many reasons an atheist would come here.

Wrong, i provided a gif of the solar system in motion, far from precise, and that gif takes account of only a little time, and it is a gif, it cycles so it doesnt look so random.
Take moon for example, its moving away from earth and has been for billions of years. Also its orbit is eccentric, as is the orbit of all planets in our solar system. Each effecting the others in their eccentric motion.
And the orbit of our solar system through our galaxy is also chaotic, effected by the gravity of other suns/solar systems close by. So yes, objects outside our solar system are also causing chaotic movement. More than that. The effect of gravity is infinite, sure weaker and weaker by the inverse square rule but never reaching zero. So even other galaxies effect our own.

Hey you have a vote. And i find it very hypocritical to gripe about science while using science to gripe.

Actually most hypothesis suggest little power was required to event the universe. At the quantum level energy is also quantum.
Imagine is the right word because all you can do is imagine based on faith alone. No evidence, no facts, just a desire to not understand because it makes your head hurt so god dun it. At least science is honest and says "we dont know"

Your misunderstanding of evolution is known so i am not going to go into the development of intellect with you.

Bull, earth is choking on over population and the use of fossil fuels which incidentally, some of the more easily accessible were used in biblical (pre science) times. So once again the hypocrisy monster rears it head

A ventriloquist uses illusion, are you saying god dun it by illusion?

Once again i note your faith in a fairy story.

And again

And now you attempt to discredit science again, what is buried? Provide evidence for your claim The scientific method does not work like that.

Try keeping that virginity while giving a virgin birth.

Science doesn't give a damn about the bible, if however science discovers something that coincidentally contradicts the bible then it is you lot who go into denial mode.

 

[viole]

When we looked for a definition of a term.
What do we do?
Do we twist things to suit our agenda?
Or do we look things up in the dictionary.

Well, but in this case it is ambiguous. Between a lot of power and unlimited power there is a huge difference.

So, tell me please which one applies

1) a great, but limited power,
2) an unlimited power

What does your Bible say?

Ciao

- viole

 

[MJFlores]

Well, but in this case it is ambiguous. Between a lot of power and unlimited power there is a huge difference.

So, tell me please which one applies

1) a great, but limited power,
2) an unlimited power

What does your Bible say?

Ciao

- viole

Merriam Webster and Google dictionary defined that - unlimited or very great power.
I don't work for any of them nor connected indirectly with them.

My Bible says this:

Revelation 11:16-18 New International Version (NIV)
And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

 

[viole]

Merriam Webster and Google dictionary defined that - unlimited or very great power.
I don't work for any of them nor connected indirectly with them.

My Bible says this:

Revelation 11:16-18 New International Version (NIV)
And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

So, may I suggest to rename Him? From Almighty to Mostmighty?

Ciao

- viole

 

[MJFlores]

So, may I suggest to rename Him? From Almighty to Mostmighty?

Ciao

- viole

Sure if you like.
Include that in your prayers, maybe he will listen to you.

 

[viole]

Sure if you like.
Include that in your prayers, maybe he will listen to you.

Prayers? Something like: Oh please Mostmighty, help me with my mortgage, or whatever. And do not listen to the prayers of the mothers of those 30,000 kids who will die today, like every day, otherwise you have no time for me, now that I know you are only a mostmighty.

Right?

Ciao

- viole

 

[MJFlores]

Prayers? Something like: Oh please Mostmighty, help me with my mortgage, or whatever. And do not listen to the prayers of the mothers of those 30,000 kids who will die today, like every day, otherwise you have no time for me, now that I know you are only a mostmighty.

Right?

Ciao

- viole

Always open your prayers politely:

"Heavenly Father, thank you for the blessings I have received from you,
Thank you for my life that you have given me,
Thank you for the loving family that you have given me
May you keep them safe, oh loving and merciful Father
Keep them away from harm in this troubled world....."

Always end your prayers properly:

"Almighty Father, I am asking all of these but it is your will that must be done and not mine..
I'm asking these in the name of your son, Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. Amen."

Do not doubt in your prayers - James 1:6

But of course, God does not hear the atheist because the atheist does not know him.
Who am I joking???
Am I serious or what???
Learn more about the God you intend to offer prayers to before he listens.
Because God does not listen to fake prayers and fake worshipers

John 4:23 New International Version (NIV)
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

 

[viole]

Always open your prayers politely:

Well sure. I am a polite person. Even though I am not a big fan of slavists and genocidal terrorists, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt. Eapecially to divinities.

"Heavenly Father, thank you for the blessings I have received from you,

What blessings? Checked my mailbox today, did not see anything of the sort.

Thank you for my life that you have given me,

Yes, and please, make it last as long as possible. I am not really so in a hurry to meet you. We will have an eternity to talk about things anyway.

Thank you for the loving family that you have given me
May you keep them safe, oh loving and merciful Father
Keep them away from harm in this troubled world....."

Yes please. They are also not so keen to meet you anytime soon. But they believe in you and how heaven is much better than here, believe me.

Always end your prayers properly:

"Almighty Father, I am asking all of these but it is your will that must be done and not mine..

I guess you mean “Mostmighty Father”.we agreed that He is not qualified for All power.

I'm asking these in the name of your son, Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. Amen."

Of course, just in case you cannot read my mind. After your demotion to Mostmighty, I am not sure of anything anymore.

Do not doubt in your prayers - James 1:6

I cannot assure you that I have no doubts in my prayers, lol.

Ciao

- viole

 

[MJFlores]

Well sure. I am a polite person. Even though I am not a big fan of slavists and genocidal terrorists, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt. Eapecially to divinities.


What blessings? Checked my mailbox today, did not see anything of the sort.


Yes, and please, make it last as long as possible. I am not really so in a hurry to meet you. We will have an eternity to talk about things anyway.


Yes please. They are also not so keen to meet you anytime soon. But they believe in you and how heaven is much better than here, believe me.



I guess you mean “Mostmighty Father”.we agreed that He is not qualified for All power.


Of course, just in case you cannot read my mind. After your demotion to Mostmighty, I am not sure of anything anymore.


I cannot assure you that I have no doubts in my prayers, lol.

Ciao

- viole

There you go.
That is why God won't really answer your prayer/s.

 

[Deeje]

I am not going to quote passages, too much for my dyslexic eyes yo handle so have responded to each paragraph in turn.

Well, your response was a bit more than my eyes can handle. Very confusing way to respond but I guess you can only do your best. I have a dyslexic grandson whom I home school. I understand the limitations.

Let me then respond as best I can....

Atheists dont need science to deny god, as for discredit? How do you discredit a myth? You have your faith, if discussion wobbles that faith (scientific or factual) then the problem is with your faith, not science or fact.

Atheists apparently do need to deny God and intelligently designed creation, or they would not so vehemently defend their own beliefs on sites like this. If you atheists are so confident that your beliefs are correct, why are you here debating on religious forums? Why are those who disagree with evolution seen as posing some kind of threat to you? Are you here 'saving' people too? Sounds a bit religious to me....

Why does it matter to you what believers believe?

For conversation, to try to understand what drives people to believe in fairy tales, to try to educate, as retaliation for the thousands of years abuse and lies handed to atheists by the religious. There are many reasons an atheist would come here.

Ah...pay back. The poor victims fighting back. I see.....a bit sad, that intelligent people need to resort to this, don't you think? Frequent reference to "goat herders" and "bronze-age" writings are designed to convey what? That those who fail to defer to science must of necessity be "unintelligent" or prone to believing things on faith?

Doesn't science need people to 'believe' evolution on 'faith'? They cannot prove that it ever happened. They can suggest reasons as to why they "think" it "might have" happened, but you have to accept what they proffer on faith. Evolution is a belief, not a fact. Like it or not...you have your own religion. It has its idols. its 'scripture', and its unique forms of worship and even its temples. You can't see that however.

Wrong, i provided a gif of the solar system in motion, far from precise, and that gif takes account of only a little time, and it is a gif, it cycles so it doesnt look so random.
Take moon for example, its moving away from earth and has been for billions of years. Also its orbit is eccentric, as is the orbit of all planets in our solar system. Each effecting the others in their eccentric motion.
And the orbit of our solar system through our galaxy is also chaotic, effected by the gravity of other suns/solar systems close by. So yes, objects outside our solar system are also causing chaotic movement. More than that. The effect of gravity is infinite, sure weaker and weaker by the inverse square rule but never reaching zero. So even other galaxies effect our own.

What does any of that have to do with day to day life on planet Earth? Any infinitesimal changes in the movement of heavenly bodies, if they impact on us at all, would not affect people living now or in the immediate future. We live and die, and science just seems to invent new ways to guarantee our extinction. They might be able to prolong life, but they certainly can't make it a pleasant experience. A visit to any nursing home will confirm that we might be living longer, but not better.

Our atmosphere is designed to keep 'outsiders' out and 'insiders' in......otherwise the Earth would be as pock marked as our moon. How many huge meteors have made it to the Earth's surface in your lifetime? How many casualties were there? How difficult is it to exit our atmosphere and re-enter without precise calculations and a vehicle designed to withstand the rigors of re-entry heat? Doesn't that tell us that Earth itself is a giant spaceship, with its own protective shield, fully self-sufficient and capable of sustaining life in all its forms without the need to go 'outside' for anything?...unless they are searching for another planet to escape to once they have destroyed this one?

Hey you have a vote. And i find it very hypocritical to gripe about science while using science to gripe.

I use technology because it is a product of human intelligence. Just as the computer I use is no accident, neither is the human brain that invented it. Science does not own its achievements as if what it uses to study nature is all their own work. The most brilliantly designed supercomputer is inside our own heads.

It fascinates me that intelligence almost always leads to the most extraordinary arrogance. I do not accept that human intellect is a product of chance. You can if you wish.

Actually most hypothesis suggest little power was required to event the universe. At the quantum level energy is also quantum.
Imagine is the right word because all you can do is imagine based on faith alone. No evidence, no facts, just a desire to not understand because it makes your head hurt so god dun it. At least science is honest and says "we dont know"

LOL...."most hypothesis suggest little power was required to event the universe"....I'll leave that up there all by itself....it speaks volumes. The words highlighted say it all.

Evolutionary science is all about "suggestions".

 

[Deeje]

Your misunderstanding of evolution is known so i am not going to go into the development of intellect with you.

There it is again.....I understand what you deny about many scientific conclusions......the development of intellect was designed to progress with man's experience. This way humans would grow in knowledge and abilities in perpetuation for all time to come. There will never be a time when he knows it all.

Bull, earth is choking on over population and the use of fossil fuels which incidentally, some of the more easily accessible were used in biblical (pre science) times. So once again the hypocrisy monster rears it head

The earth is choking on what science has produced. Nothing ancient people did threatened life on this planet.

Mismanagement of earth's resources and human greed led science to produce the means to do the damage. Plastics....pesticides....herbicides....artificial chemicals and hormones used in Western medicines......GMO's.....petrochemical pollution and other industrially produced toxins. And the big one...nuclear weapons. Who decided to see what power there was in splitting atoms?.....wasn't it scientists? How many branches of science does it take to threaten all life on this planet?

Commend what is commendable about their achievements.... but do not fail to also recognize their dastardly contribution to our present state.

A ventriloquist uses illusion, are you saying god dun it by illusion?

Again resorting to disparaging speech? Does that make you feel superior somehow?
A ventriloquist does not use illusion, he/she uses skill. It has to be learned like any other skill.
Can you prove by scientific means that there is no Creator or that he has no way to make a human think that an animal is talking? Seems to me that the devil did it first....don't believe it? you are welcome to hold whatever belief you like.

Once again i note your faith in a fairy story.

No one tells fairy stories like scientists can. In Disney animated cartoons, all it takes is a plausible story....some really good computer graphics and these stories and characters take on three dimensions.....its a miracle! Who needs provable facts?

And now you attempt to discredit science again, what is buried? Provide evidence for your claim The scientific method does not work like that.

The "scientific method" is defined this way....

• Make an observation
• Ask a question
• Gather background information
• Create a hypothesis
• Create an experiment to test the hypothesis
• Analyze the results of the experiment
• Draw a conclusion
• Share the conclusion
• Decide what question (if any) should be asked next

I can see no problem with the first 4 things on that list.....but what comes after is where science falls short IMO.
What experiment exists that can verify what science claims are a series of fossils that have undergone evolutionary change? There is none. To "analyse the results" then requires guesswork which then brings them to an incorrect conclusion, which is then shared to others who believe what they are told or they are accused of being unintelligent.

Its guesswork masquerading as facts. Very dodgy IMV.

Try keeping that virginity while giving a virgin birth.

Who said that she remained a virgin? That is a Catholic concept not a Biblical one. Mary conceived whilst still a virgin, making the child unlike any other child ever born in human form.There was a purpose to that.

Science doesn't give a damn about the bible, if however science discovers something that coincidentally contradicts the bible then it is you lot who go into denial mode.

Actually, Bible believers don't care what science 'believes' if it is not based on provable facts.....In my estimations, it is the Creator who knows more about science than any human. You will forgive me if I defer to him rather than to some intellectual whose whole belief system could collapse tomorrow with the next discovery.

God doesn't change. Its nice to have something rock solid to build your future on.

 

[ChristineM]

Well, your response was a bit more than my eyes can handle. Very confusing way to respond but I guess you can only do your best. I have a dyslexic grandson whom I home school. I understand the limitations.

Let me then respond as best I can....

Atheists apparently do need to deny God and intelligently designed creation, or they would not so vehemently defend their own beliefs on sites like this. If you atheists are so confident that your beliefs are correct, why are you here debating on religious forums? Why are those who disagree with evolution seen as posing some kind of threat to you? Are you here 'saving' people too? Sounds a bit religious to me....

Why does it matter to you what believers believe?

Ah...pay back. The poor victims fighting back. I see.....a bit sad, that intelligent people need to resort to this, don't you think? Frequent reference to "goat herders" and "bronze-age" writings are designed to convey what? That those who fail to defer to science must of necessity be "unintelligent" or prone to believing things on faith?

Doesn't science need people to 'believe' evolution on 'faith'? They cannot prove that it ever happened. They can suggest reasons as to why they "think" it "might have" happened, but you have to accept what they proffer on faith. Evolution is a belief, not a fact. Like it or not...you have your own religion. It has its idols. its 'scripture', and its unique forms of worship and even its temples. You can't see that however.

What does any of that have to do with day to day life on planet Earth? Any infinitesimal changes in the movement of heavenly bodies, if they impact on us at all, would not affect people living now or in the immediate future. We live and die, and science just seems to invent new ways to guarantee our extinction. They might be able to prolong life, but they certainly can't make it a pleasant experience. A visit to any nursing home will confirm that we might be living longer, but not better.

Our atmosphere is designed to keep 'outsiders' out and 'insiders' in......otherwise the Earth would be as pock marked as our moon. How many huge meteors have made it to the Earth's surface in your lifetime? How many casualties were there? How difficult is it to exit our atmosphere and re-enter without precise calculations and a vehicle designed to withstand the rigors of re-entry heat? Doesn't that tell us that Earth itself is a giant spaceship, with its own protective shield, fully self-sufficient and capable of sustaining life in all its forms without the need to go 'outside' for anything?...unless they are searching for another planet to escape to once they have destroyed this one?

I use technology because it is a product of human intelligence. Just as the computer I use is no accident, neither is the human brain that invented it. Science does not own its achievements as if what it uses to study nature is all their own work. The most brilliantly designed supercomputer is inside our own heads.

It fascinates me that intelligence almost always leads to the most extraordinary arrogance. I do not accept that human intellect is a product of chance. You can if you wish.

LOL...."most hypothesis suggest little power was required to event the universe"....I'll leave that up there all by itself....it speaks volumes. The words highlighted say it all.

Evolutionary science is all about "suggestions".

Then perhaps you should have more respect for dyslexia. I will not go into the abuse of homeschooling a disabled child.

They are not beliefs, we ALL either have facts or we dont know, that is the honest position

I gave you a list of some reasons why there are atheists on RF. You can choose to accept that list or not, it seems you dont accept it, not my problem

What threat? It is highly hilarious that some will not believe fact but rather put their faith in a bronze age myth.

It does not matter what you believe, what does matter is trying to force your own belief down others throats and threatening them and their children with eternal torture for not believing in bullpoop, or as has happened and is still happening, trying to kill people who do not believe a particular set of beliefs.

Why do you think it sad, its sick that you think that thousands of years of genocide and murder, rape and molestation in any way are made up by telling the truth that hurts you blind belief. If you spent more time studying history of the period rather than your idealised godbook then perhaps you would not be so callous. You are right, intelligence is a key, it allows people to learn.

Evolution is proven beyond doubt. Again, not my problem is you refuse to accept the overwhelming evidence from several different branches of science. And not my problem that you choose to make up bullpoop in your own mind to explain away inconvenient facts.

Correct, meteor strikes have no effect on your little world. And your limited understanding of time does not see the bigger picture. I wonder if the dinosaurs thought like you?

So you would prefer a happy lifespan of 25 years and being riddled with parasites and agonising disease. Fair enough.

You got it wrong, earth is covered in meteor impact sites, the atmosphere and nature simply tidy up the devastation. And again with the limited understanding of time, forget my lifetime, consider your grandmothers lifetime, tunguska?



Known meteor impact sites, remember those shown are on only 30% of earths surface.

Technology is a product of science, you can hide that from yourself whatever way you want but dont be a hypocrite. Science CREATED its achievements. Interesting howvyou selectively choose creators to worship.

It fascinates me that intelligence leads to your comfortable way of life and you so readily to willingly ignore and discredit the science that makes it possible while thanking god for creating childhood leukemia and the mosquito.

And your guess of god magic does not even make the grade of hypothesis. So leave it wherever makes you feel better.