On enlightenment

[Riverwolf]

Are there different kinds of enlightenment?

 

[Onkara]

Hi Riverwolf
No, there is not different kinds of enlightenment. However there are different ways of trying to explain it and this gives the impression that enlightenment is something closer to an object: an object which we either have or don't have. Explaining it gives the sense that it is something different each time or similiar depending on how and when it is explained. So for example some say "no mind" others say "beyond mind", the first would sound that mind can cease to exist, the latter would imply there is something beyond mind whilst mind continues to exist. It seems people pick one or the other and this gives rise to the sense that "enlightenment" could be different and multiple.

 

[Engyo]

Are there different kinds of enlightenment?

From my understanding there are different *levels* of enlightenment; from momentary satori all the way to annuttara samyak sambodhi, or perfect enlightenment. They aren't different kinds, per se; more like resting places on the path up the mountain.

 

[Nothing]

I do not believe there are different kinds of enlightenment. My understanding (being quite limited since I haven't experienced it) is that it would be the perfect knowing of the Oneness of all that is, seen and unseen. There may be different levels of this and there must certianly be many paths to its attainment. Those who have experienced it may use different words to discribe it (though it probably cannot be accurately described in words) but no doubt the words would mean the same thing.

 

[Breathe]

In my opinion?


No different kinds; just different levels as one journeys up the hill of enlightenment. Some may spend longer at one level than another--and different words to describe it.


Just my two cents.

 

[Onkara]

I cannot subscribed to different levels. What I would say is that there can still be doubts and questions and these might go unanswered.

Enlightenment then is when the questioner already has an answer. That line might sound paradoxical but the point is that if there is no duality and everything is One, then both question and answer also exist as One, in that One. As it has been said before: knowing Oneness is enlightenment.

 

[Surya Deva]

I think there is intellectual enlightenment and experiential enlightenment. Intellectual enlightenment is when you "get it" and experiencial enlightenment is is when you "experience it"

 

[Christian Gnosis]

Are there different kinds of enlightenment?

Well personal understanding, enlightenment is a pretty subjective term itself. Buddha, Lao Tzu, Confucius, etc. all of these have been called enlightened. These three men teach vastly differently about how to approach enlightenment and give up cravings. The Buddha perhaps, again personal understanding, didn't intend for enlightenment to become this objective, almost dogmatic term within Buddhism. One must seek inner-peace within, and people approach that differently. I quote the following from the Diamond Cutter Sutra:

"I gained absolutely nothing from supreme enlightenment. That is exactly why it is called supreme enlightenment."

 

[Engyo]

I quote the following from the Diamond Cutter Sutra:

"I gained absolutely nothing from supreme enlightenment. That is exactly why it is called supreme enlightenment."

Yeah, I gradually evolved away from understanding enlightenment as "gain". Awakening is probably a better english term to use, in general, than enlightenment.

 

[Christian Gnosis]

Yeah, I gradually evolved away from understanding enlightenment as "gain". Awakening is probably a better english term to use, in general, than enlightenment.

I think the way some followers of dharmic paths have come to view enlightenment IMO is unrealistic and a romanticized picture of what it actually is.

 

[Engyo]

I think the way some followers of dharmic paths have come to view enlightenment IMO is unrealistic and a romanticized picture of what it actually is.

The problem is that none of us (the not-yet-awakened) *know* what it actually is; and so you have your opinion, I have mine, and others have theirs.

 

[Onkara]

The problem is that none of us (the not-yet-awakened) *know* what it actually is; and so you have your opinion, I have mine, and others have theirs.

With respect, the fact that there is multiplicity of views doesn't imply that enlightenment cannot be recognised. Enlightenment is knowing that that the multiplicty and the diverstiy make up the unity. "Parity consists preceisly in disparity" - Max Stirner.

 

[Engyo]

With respect, the fact that there is multiplicity of views doesn't imply that enlightenment cannot be recognised. Enlightenment is knowing that that the multiplicty and the diverstiy make up the unity. "Parity consists preceisly in disparity" - Max Stirner.

With equal respect, I think we are talking about different things when we are both using the term "enlightenment", based on your definition here.

 

[Onkara]

With equal respect, I think we are talking about different things when we are both using the term "enlightenment", based on your definition here.

That is interesting I would be interested if you could expand on how your (or my) perspective is different?

By the way, I am not implying that someone has something others do not, or that others may not know or "I" do, all of which is illogical. Rather I like the "challenge" which come in trying to communicate something so subtle, so would be interested if you elaborate a little.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Riverwolf,

Truth is that there is nothing as enlightenment as one is born enlightened except that one is not aware of it, the veil/illusion the mind had created just lifts.

Enlightenment is only for the minds to understand the state when the mind itself is still.
Yes, initially one can still the mind for a split second and then with practice is able to still totally.
Total stillness of the mind is what some state as moksha or nirvana etc.
The actual journey inwards starts only after the initial glimpse or the first stillness of the mind and from there on till one is totally merged with the *whole*.
Is it possible to divide the state of no-mind in stages?? No it is either mind or no-mind though in between as mentioned after the initial glimpse the mind will keep coming back and from there on it is a conscious journey till moksha or nirvana.

Love & rgds

 

[Engyo]

With respect, the fact that there is multiplicity of views doesn't imply that enlightenment cannot be recognised.

I never said it couldn't be recognized. I said we can't *know* it - big difference. I can recognize musical brilliance when I hear it - but that has very little relationship to actually being able to play music brilliantly.

Enlightenment is knowing that that the multiplicty and the diverstiy make up the unity. "Parity consists preceisly in disparity" - Max Stirner.

Personally, I feel that I do understand the first sentence here; this might be equivalent to a minor satori, but I'm sure it does not equate to full and complete awakening. As I said, I feel that I have a grasp of multiplicity and diversity making up unity, while I can't come anywhere close to claiming to be awake, let alone fully and completely awake.

 

[Onkara]

Thanks for elaborating, Engyo.
Just fyi, I didn't imply to change the meaning from "know" to "recognise". I tend to use them interchangeably.

My point in the first sentance is that "enlightenment" underlies everything, including difference and multiplicity. So enlightenment does not mean that people will have different opinions or life will not be full of diversity. Life continues as it is because enlightenment means knowing that everything is just as it should be i.e. there is a grand unity of diversity when taken as a whole.

Words are the stumbling block, as it seems no sooner do we try to explain enlightenment we are battling with pepole's depcitions (pretty much your point above). What I tried to add, for nothing more than to add to the topic at hand, is that although peoples' depcitions alter, "enligtenment" remains there, unaffected.

 

[reve]

I always wanted enlightenment when I found out about in the late 60's. Now I think you can be a bit enlightened. But when your eyes are open that is it. More people these days, once just Krishnamurti or Bhagwan depending who you believe. The apocalypse or unveiling is when all our eyes open at last to what is going on. Pure enlightenment probably via a newspaper.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Are there different kinds of enlightenment?

Since I am not enlightened I can only Guess. This is what has been taught to me by scriptures and my teacher who I believe to be enlightened.

A person who is Enlightened is what my tradition calls a Jivamukti or free while in the body. It is not something that is experienced while sitting. It is a state of being.


This is from a Tantric text. This prince has discovered that his Beautiful wife is a jivamukti. She is now advising him on the path to enlightenment.

TRIPURA RAHASYA​

Chapter 10


1-5. "Hemalekha noticed that her husband had attained supreme Peace and so did not disturb him. He awoke in an hour and a half, opened his eyes and saw his wife nearby. Eager to fall into that state once more, he closed his eyes; and immediately Hemalekha took hold of his hands and asked him sweetly: 'My Lord, tell me what you have ascertained to be your gain on closing your eyes, or your loss on opening them, my dearest. I love to hear you. Do say what happens on the eyes being closed or left open.'

6. "On being pressed for an answer, he looked as if he were drunk and replied reluctantly and languidly, as follows:

7-14. "'My dear, I have found pure untainted happiness. I cannot find the least satisfaction in the activities of the world as sorrow increases when they finish. Enough of them! They are tasteless to me like a sucked orange, only indulged in by wasters, or like cattle incessantly chewing the cud. What a pity that such people should be to this day unaware of the bliss of their own Self! Just as a man goes a-begging in ignorance of the treasure hidden under his floor, so did I run after sensual pleasures unaware of the boundless ocean of bliss within me. Worldly pursuits are laden with misery and pleasures are transient. Still I was so infatuated that I mistook them for enduring pleasures, was often grief-stricken, yet did not cease to pursue them over and over again. The pity of it: Men are fools, unable to discriminate pleasure from pain. They seek pleasures but gain sorrow. Enough of these activities which increase the relish for such pleasure.

"My dear, I beg you with hands clasped. Let me fall again into the peace of my blissful self. I pity you that though knowing this state, you are not in it but are ever engaged in vain."

15-27. "The wise girl gently smiled at all this, and said to him: 'My lord, you do not yet know the highest state of sanctity (which is not besmirched by duality), reaching which the wise transcend duality and are never perplexed. That state is as far from you as the sky is from the earth. Your small measure of wisdom is as good as no wisdom, because it is not unconditional, but remains conditioned by closing or opening your eyes. Perfection cannot depend on activity or the reverse, on effort or no effort. How can that state be a perfect one if mental or physical activity can influence it or if the displacement of the eyelid by the width of a barley grain makes all the difference to it? Again, how can it be perfect if located only in the interior? What shall I say of your muddled wisdom! How ridiculous to think that your eyelid one inch long, can shut up the expanse in which millions of worlds revolve in one corner alone!'

"Listen Prince! I will tell you further. As long as these knots are not cut asunder so long will bliss not be found (The knowledge acquired is thus not effective). These knots are millions in number and are created by the bond of delusion which is no other than ignorance of Self. These knots give rise to mistaken ideas, the chief of which is the identification of the body with the Self, which in its turn gives rise to the perennial stream of happiness and misery in the shape of the cycle of births and deaths. The second knot is the differentiation of the world from the Self whose being consciousness is the mirror on which the phenomena are simply reflected. Similarly with the other knots including the differentiation of beings among themselves and from the universal Self. They have originated from time immemorial and recur with unbroken ignorance. The man is not finally redeemed until he has extricated himself from these numberless knots of ignorance.

28-38. "The state which is the result of your closing the eyes, cannot be enough, for it is pure intelligence and eternal truth transcending anything else yet serving as the magnificent mirror to reflect the phenomena arising in itself. Prove, if you can, that everything is not contained in it. Whatever you admit as known to you, is in the knowledge conveyed by that consciousness. Even what may be surmised to be in another place and at a different time, is also within your consciousness. Moreover, what is not apparent and unknown to that intelligence is a figment of imagination like the son of a barren woman. There cannot be anything that is not held by consciousness, just as there cannot be reflection without a reflecting surface.

"Therefore I tell you that your conviction: 'I shall lose it by opening my eyes' or 'I know it,' is the knot awaiting to be cut, and there will be no attainment though, remember, it cannot be the perfect state if it can be attained. What you consider the happy state as accomplished by the movements of your eyelids, cannot indeed be perfect because it is certainly intermittent and not unconditional. Is any place found where the effulgence is not, my lord, of the fire blazing at the dissolution of the universe? All will resolve into that fire and no residue will be left. Similarly also the fire of realisation will burn away all your sense of duty so that there will be nothing left for you to do. Be strong, root out your thoughts and cut off the deep-rooted knots from your heart, namely, 'I will see', 'I am not this', 'This is non-Self', and such like.

"Find wherever you turn the one undivided, eternal blissful Self; also watch the whole universe reflected as it arises and subsides in the Self. See the Self both within and without you; yet do not confound the seeing Self within as the Seer of the universal Self without, for both are the same. Inhere in the peace of your true internal Self, devoid of all phenomena."

39-42. At the end of her speech, Hemachuda's confusion was cleared up...


TRIPURA RAHASYA. Chapters I - XV of XXII

 

[Twilight Hue]

Friend Riverwolf,

Truth is that there is nothing as enlightenment as one is born enlightened except that one is not aware of it, the veil/illusion the mind had created just lifts.

Its my understanding as well. There is just realization/illumination brought about through clarity as the monkey mind, tempered by practice, naturally settles and becomes quiet. First its sporadic instances of clarity and realisation that "pops" through time to time, and eventually gives way to complete settling to where realisation/illumination is open and unhindered.