• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

On Evolution & Creation

READY S W

New Member
Creation and Evolution are the same thing are they not? As the artist is creating his work is it not evolving and as it is evolving is it not also being created? However both are the result of Emanation ( Thought ) and Manifestation. Manifestation being the end result of both the creative and evolutionary process. Creation and Evolution are physical in nature but Emanation is Metaphysical and Manifestation is Spiritual. Only the Spiritual can permeate, pervade and perdure all things. The Holy Spirit is cohort to The Generative Word and moves and acts under the Power of said Generative Word. The body of Christ is The Generative Word and the Blood of Christ is the Holy Spirit. God is an uncaused cause that is both Essence (Love) and Existence (Life). Love is Metaphysical and Life is Spiritual and their physical aspects are what we experience although the "True" physical is both Metaphysical and Spiritual in nature.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Evolution and Creation are similar but they differ in terms of time scale. For example, weather can erode and evolve the side of a mountain over millions of years to look like a human face; Old Man of the Mountain and evolution. While the artist can do the same in much less time; Mt Rushmore and artistic creation.


Old_Man_of_the_Mountain_4-26-03_%28cropped%29.jpg
9f.jpg


Evolution, such as the old man is more fuzzy, whereas creation is more planned and clear. One can see this if we compare the science approach of evolution to the God assumption of creation. Evolution is modeled with statistical models; fuzzy dice, whereas an omnipotent god is more about determinism, which is closer to idea of planned cause and effect.

The question becomes when did nature, via humans, begin to plan and change the environment on a grand scale? This is connected to the rise of civilization, which times out better with the Bible timing of Creation; 6000 years ago, than the time scale of the evolution of human DNA; 1.3 million years ago.

The earlier humans or pre-humans were weathered by genetic change and natural selection; old man. With the rise of civilization, the human mind started to clear and they started to create at an accelerated pace, adding their own touches to reality, on an expanding scale.

My belief is Creation is about the time interval connected to rise of the modern human. who could plan and create, altering the environment in their own image. The rise of the human ego, needed for this was about 6-10k years ago. Before that, evolution ruled humans; inner self and paradise, when change was slow and time seemed to stand still; old man of the mountain.

As a footnote: The Old Man of the Mountain, broke off and fell a few years ago; instinct has fallen as part of evolution.

images
 
Last edited:

Audie

Veteran Member
Creation and Evolution are the same thing are they not? As the artist is creating his work is it not evolving and as it is evolving is it not also being created? However both are the result of Emanation ( Thought ) and Manifestation. Manifestation being the end result of both the creative and evolutionary process. Creation and Evolution are physical in nature but Emanation is Metaphysical and Manifestation is Spiritual. Only the Spiritual can permeate, pervade and perdure all things. The Holy Spirit is cohort to The Generative Word and moves and acts under the Power of said Generative Word. The body of Christ is The Generative Word and the Blood of Christ is the Holy Spirit. God is an uncaused cause that is both Essence (Love) and Existence (Life). Love is Metaphysical and Life is Spiritual and their physical aspects are what we experience although the "True" physical is both Metaphysical and Spiritual in nature.
No.
But you might apply at restaurants, if
they need someone to make salads.
 
Creation and Evolution are the same thing are they not? As the artist is creating his work is it not evolving and as it is evolving is it not also being created? However both are the result of Emanation ( Thought ) and Manifestation. Manifestation being the end result of both the creative and evolutionary process. Creation and Evolution are physical in nature but Emanation is Metaphysical and Manifestation is Spiritual. Only the Spiritual can permeate, pervade and perdure all things. The Holy Spirit is cohort to The Generative Word and moves and acts under the Power of said Generative Word. The body of Christ is The Generative Word and the Blood of Christ is the Holy Spirit. God is an uncaused cause that is both Essence (Love) and Existence (Life). Love is Metaphysical and Life is Spiritual and their physical aspects are what we experience although the "True" physical is both Metaphysical and Spiritual in nature.
I find this perspective intriguing. It's a thought-provoking blend of theological concepts and philosophical musings. The idea of creation and evolution being intertwined processes reflects the complexity of God's work in our world.

I appreciate how you've connected the physical, metaphysical, and spiritual realms, suggesting a holistic view of existence that aligns with many Christian teachings. Your description of God as both Essence (Love) and Existence (Life) resonates with the biblical portrayal of God's nature.

I would caution against conflating too many concepts, as it might lead to confusion or misinterpretation of core Christian doctrines. While it's valuable to explore these deep spiritual ideas, it's also important to ground our understanding in scripture and established theological frameworks.

I'm particularly interested in how these concepts might impact one's personal faith journey and mental well-being. How might viewing creation and evolution as interconnected processes affect one's relationship with God or understanding of their place in the universe?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I find this perspective intriguing. It's a thought-provoking blend of theological concepts and philosophical musings. The idea of creation and evolution being intertwined processes reflects the complexity of God's work in our world.

I appreciate how you've connected the physical, metaphysical, and spiritual realms, suggesting a holistic view of existence that aligns with many Christian teachings. Your description of God as both Essence (Love) and Existence (Life) resonates with the biblical portrayal of God's nature.

I would caution against conflating too many concepts, as it might lead to confusion or misinterpretation of core Christian doctrines. While it's valuable to explore these deep spiritual ideas, it's also important to ground our understanding in scripture and established theological frameworks.

I'm particularly interested in how these concepts might impact one's personal faith journey and mental well-being. How might viewing creation and evolution as interconnected processes affect one's relationship with God or understanding of their place in the universe?
The metaphysics of evolution.

Surely you're joking.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Creation and Evolution are the same thing are they not? ...

I find this perspective intriguing. It's a thought-provoking blend of theological concepts and philosophical musings. The idea of creation and evolution being intertwined processes reflects the complexity of God's work in our world.

I appreciate how you've connected the physical, metaphysical, and spiritual realms, suggesting a holistic view of existence that aligns with many Christian teachings.

In other words: 'it was really, really wonderful because it agrees with me."

Nevertheless, no, they are not the same.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Creation and Evolution are the same thing are they not? As the artist is creating his work is it not evolving and as it is evolving is it not also being created? However both are the result of Emanation ( Thought ) and Manifestation. Manifestation being the end result of both the creative and evolutionary process. Creation and Evolution are physical in nature but Emanation is Metaphysical and Manifestation is Spiritual. Only the Spiritual can permeate, pervade and perdure all things. The Holy Spirit is cohort to The Generative Word and moves and acts under the Power of said Generative Word. The body of Christ is The Generative Word and the Blood of Christ is the Holy Spirit. God is an uncaused cause that is both Essence (Love) and Existence (Life). Love is Metaphysical and Life is Spiritual and their physical aspects are what we experience although the "True" physical is both Metaphysical and Spiritual in nature.
I did not understand part of this.
The Holy Spirit is cohort to The Generative Word and moves and acts under the Power of said Generative Word. The body of Christ is The Generative Word and the Blood of Christ is the Holy Spirit.
This is the part that I am not grasping. I've never heard anyone call the blood of christ the holy spirit. I think its an allusion that I have missed. Possibly I understand what you mean by generative word but am uncertain.
Creation and Evolution are the same thing are they not?
In the sense that we are here regardless of how we came to be. Evolution is an important truth, while creation is a way of looking at it.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The theories of Evolution and Creation stem from two world views; two different philosophies. Evolution is modeled after a more random philosophy of the universe. Creation is more based on a more rational and deterministic philosophy of the universe. Each are custom fitted to each philosophy and not other way around. We then see what we expect to see, based on which philosophical bias we share.

Evolution does not create. Rather its creations are more of a random byproduct. The Old man in the Mountain was not the goal of million years of erosion. Rather the semblance of an old man's head was a coincidence. That fits the black box mentality. Creation is something that humans do in a deliberate way. If I needed a place to live, I can build a house and thereby create a shelter; deliberate action with a goal in mind. I do not have to wait for nature, via a coincidence, to tunnel out a cave for me to find. The random philosophy does more conjuring; odds makers, while the rational philosophy does more creating. A deterministic God, or belief thereof, is a platform for reason and logic; deliberate action to a goal. It is not about waiting for random event to align with my needs, so I can eat. I need to create a deliberate plan with logic.

The main problem with the random approach is, it is grounded on human creations and not naturally random things. For example, dice are man made and are designed in a way that is not like nature. A six sided dice is designed to be equally weighed on all sides, so when thrown the same odds appear for each side. Dice were created that way as part for a gambling game from ancient times. Atoms, on the other hand, have all their sides different; layered as different energy levels. Those natural dice are not homogenized, so molecules can form just as easy with inner or outer orbital electrons. They are loaded so the outcomes of chemical reaction are more predictable and rational. Dice are part of an invented/created human game of chance, and became the foundation for a form of science, used to model a random philosophy of the universe.

Playing cards, another human creation, allows for a large number of combinations, the odds of which can be calculated. This is because they are all created with the same physical size and weight, but are only different in terms of their subjective markings, which is totally arbitrary. Subjectivity is closer to random, which is why it was created that way. People create their own reality.

We have two main political parties, each with a different world view, with both looking at the same data, but each forming different conclusions. How is that possible? It depends whether you try to be objective to the data, or whether the subjectivity of face cards matters more; racism and DEI. In my experience, the Left tends to be more subjective; emotional thinkers, and therefore tend to gravitate to a random model of evolution. Gender is now a new deck of cards. Does anyone know how many cards in that new deck? Pick a card!

For example, Socialism has been tried before, with some limited success but also some epic failures. From the random mind, the next time can be the charm. Evolution creates things the same way; new species or replicators appear. The Creationist who has to create something; build a bridge, knows random takes too long and cannot be aimed very well. It is better for games. Hoping this time will be different is not good enough. You need more of a logical plan; cause and effect, so it ends up as was needed in reasonable time. Creationism, ironically, actually helped the human brain be more like God, and learn to have plan with a casual philosophy; image of God. The speed of creation; 6 days, suggest find the fastest path for your human creation, and that will be the most logical; simplicity is perfection.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Hi @READY S W

Just realised the forum I'm in. Welcome.

The word "creation" is typically used around here with respect to God creating humans as they are and not them evolving from long lineages that were not always humans. You can use it however you please, but it might get confusing.

As you were
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Hi @READY S W

Just realised the forum I'm in. Welcome.

The word "creation" is typically used around here with respect to God creating humans as they are and not them evolving from long lineages that were not always humans. You can use it however you please, but it might get confusing.

As you were
To keep in mind is that " creation" requires a
creator.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Evolution is modeled after a more random philosophy of the universe.

It's based on science, observance, & logic using the Scientific Method.

In my experience, the Left tends to be more subjective; emotional thinkers, and therefore tend to gravitate to a random model of evolution.

Actually, it's the opposite. For example, according to a study as reported in Scientific American, people with a ph.d. are far more apt to vote "left", and people with lower levels of education overwhelmingly tend to vote "right".

For example, Socialism has been tried before, with some limited success but also some epic failures.

Tell that to the Nordic countries that are happier with their arrangement than are the American people.

Creationism, ironically, actually helped the human brain be more like God, and learn to have plan with a casual philosophy; image of God. The speed of creation; 6 days, suggest find the fastest path for your human creation, and that will be the most logical; simplicity is perfection.

Please define "God"? Secondly, what scientific research clearly indicates there was a divine creation?
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
It's based on science, observance, & logic using the Scientific Method.



Actually, it's the opposite. For example, according to a study as reported in Scientific American, people with a ph.d. are far more apt to vote "left", and people with lower levels of education overwhelmingly tend to vote "right".



Tell that to the Nordic countries that are happier with their arrangement than are the American people.



Please define "God"? Secondly, what scientific research clearly indicates there was a divine creation?
I am not saying evolution is not based on the Scientific Method, but rather I am saying there are two main Scientific methods, with evolution based on the black box empirical method. The other is an open box method based on reason and logic. The litmus test for the differences is future prediction. This is not easy with a closed black box. It is much easier if you can reason your model, with no black box needed. We cannot use the current version of evolution to make easy prediction. It is not fully rational, just empirical.

Let me give you an example where the science of evolution remains black box irrational. The DNA is the template material which is used to make the protein that runs all the cellular activity. The problem is the raw protein that comes off the ribosomes are not bioactive. It does not become bioactive until water causes it to fold and pack. This is why you cannot substitute any other solvent, since each solvent would try to pack the same raw protein in a different way with little if anything becoming bioactive. Life on earth is tuned to water. It is the only solvent that can pack all the protein all the way to bio-active.

The DNA is really like the hard drive of a computer that has all the raw data, while the water is the CPU; central processing unit. Water will process all the raw protein to create their active shapes and states called enzymes and integrate that into the state called life. Evolution is better explained with water as the CPU of life and evolution. Water was there from before abiogenesis and does not have to come in black box late, like the first replicators. Water was packing simple protein toward bioactive protein, way before that. If water packed an early protein but it is not bioactive, since too much surface tension remains in water, there is a potential for change or merger.

Life is based on secondary bonding effects, These are the weaker bonds that allow life to become fluid, since secondary bonds can make and break easier. Liquid water, via its massive 3-D hydrogen bonding network, is the king of secondary bonding forces. There is nothing quite like it in all nature. Everything in the cells is made bioactive by this secondary bonding dominance of water. Water led natural selection at the nanoscale and it is still leading at all levels of life.

A full picture of life is not just the organic matrix but also the water matrix that is like the fluid 3-D scaffold. But is more than that. Hydrogen bonds are like little binary switches. These can move information allowing the entire cell to communicate. Flipping these switches is more than just information since each setting creates a different local free energy environment; memory with muscle (entropy, enthalpy and pressure). I am able to extrapolate in my head due to this being a rational model. I can go very deep in the weeds and make predictions.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I am not saying evolution is not based on the Scientific Method, but rather I am saying there are two main Scientific methods, with evolution based on the black box empirical method. The other is an open box method based on reason and logic.

"Evolution" implies is "reason and logic"-- all material things tend to change over time and dna and genes are material objects. Yes, it is that simple.

We cannot use the current version of evolution to make easy prediction.

Only in terms of the rate of evolution is at least somewhat predictable, but what specific alterations of dna is not.

The DNA is the template material which is used to make the protein that runs all the cellular activity. The problem is the raw protein that comes off the ribosomes are not bioactive. It does not become bioactive until water causes it to fold and pack.

Water by itself does not alter dna because, logically, any water in one's system or outside of one's system would cause mutations, and that's simply nonsense.

The reality is that the ToE in no way denies at least the possibility of divine creation. Thus, it's simply not an either/or paradigm as you're implying.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Tell that to the Nordic countries that are happier with their arrangement than are the American people.
They always point towards examples that nobody has suggested as a model. It's the same old tiresome strawman. And like you pointed out, they ignore the European countries who have a higher quality of life and more freedom.

If one truly loves their country, they would want to fix it's flaws and improve upon it.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
"Evolution" implies is "reason and logic"-- all material things tend to change over time and dna and genes are material objects. Yes, it is that simple.



Only in terms of the rate of evolution is at least somewhat predictable, but what specific alterations of dna is not.



Water by itself does not alter dna because, logically, any water in one's system or outside of one's system would cause mutations, and that's simply nonsense.

The reality is that the ToE in no way denies at least the possibility of divine creation. Thus, it's simply not an either/or paradigm as you're implying.
DNA changes over time is an empirical correlation. It is not inferred by logic but can be inferred from observation. Why does DNA change over time, needs logic and reason. For example, that change can be traced to the 2nd law which says that entropy has to increase. Energy tries to reach the lowest level and stay there, but entropy has to keep increasing.

In the cell, when water packs protein or firms up the hydrogen bonding of the DNA double helix between base pairs, the structural organic entropy is lowered and this organic materials are forced to go in the wrong direction for the 2nd law.

A raw protein is like an expanded strand of fuzzy spaghetti. It has more degrees of freedom, all stretched out, therefore at higher entropy or complexity. Once water folds and packs, the protein becomes restricted thereby lowering its entropy; less complex. This occurs since the water is lowering the aqueous hydrogen bonding matrix potential by lowering the organic entropy; less surface area.

There is now an enhanced need to increase complexity on all these surfaces. This can be enzymatic reaction enhancement or the addition of enzymatic complexes on the DNA. Even a defect on the DNA, being out of sort is a small region of enhanced entropy. That defect may speak for a small range of the nearby bases on the DNA; increase zonal entropy. Water enhances the DNA and protein so they can become bioactive and alive.

An interesting application of entropy and DNA is natural DNA is normally a right handed helix, instead of both left and right handed if synthesized in the lab. This reflects a loss of entropy, thereby creating an entropic potential on the entire DNA even before water enhances that. It is perfectly designed for change; activity and life.

DNA is a double helix but RNA is a single helix with some double helix sections. The is also connected to water. The DNA is more reduced both on its sugar and one of the its base compared to RNA. This makes the DNA more oily and creates higher surface tension than RNA, There is a larger need bury the sugar and bases of DNA to shield the water; double helix optimizes that. Thymine on DNA has an extra methyl group -CH3; oil drop. While the ribose of RNA has two -OH groups where have the opposite effect of the oil; polar and water friendly.


dna-versus-rna-608191_sketch_Final-54acdd8f8af04c73817e8811c32905fa.png


One more basic water-oil analysis is post transcriptional modification of the DNA, where methyl or acetyl groups are added to regulate gene expression The methylation add a more oily methyl group. This causes the DNA to need to stay together tighter to avoid surface tension with the water.These genes are harder to activate. While the acetyl group is more polar and water friendly and easier to pull apart. The DNA has areas that hardly ever change, and other area where change is more likely, with water-oil modifications a simple water way to achieve this.
 
Top