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On Predestination

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Hypothetical I
You are at a swimming pool. You approach the pool and you notice two children who are starting to drown. You are a strong swimmer and you have the time and ability to save both. Instead, you opt to save one and to do nothing to save the other. Consequently, the child you declined to save drowns.

When questioned about this you become incredulous. You affirm that you could have saved both children but you nonetheless insist there was neither injustice nor dereliction in your choice to save only one rather than both. You insist that your act of rescue was an act of magnanimity to which neither child was entitled. You had no obligation to intervene at all so everyone should be grateful for the rescue that did in fact occur.

Hypothetical II
You are God. You create Adam and Eve and you foresee a future disobedience. This disobedience reprobates the entire species to Hell. To counter this you develop a plan. First you establish a people group called the Hebrews and you give them a more or less exclusive tribal religion. It's a sacrificial religion with complex rules and regulations both moral and cultic. This religion does not confer salvific merit; it does nothing to save its adherents from their reprobation. But it establishes a messianic hope with which you lay the groundwork for your real plan; a universal religion open to all established by your own incarnated self. This new religion does confer salvific merit.

Anyone, regardless of their race, sex or social status who accepts baptism into the new religion and dies without unrepentant mortal sin is assured a place in a realm of eternal happiness. Those who do not accept baptism into this religion or otherwise die in unrepentant mortal sin will be left to their painful fate of eternal misery to which humanity by Adam was doomed. You have given humanity an out from their otherwise inevitable damnation. At the same time you respect the free will of your creatures enough as to not force this out upon them.

But there's a catch
You lied about the free will thing. This new religion (Christianity) which you have established while open to all is efficacious only to a few whom you yourself have predestined. It is well within your power to make it universally efficacious but you choose not to. Those whom you have predestined are guaranteed to die in your grace and thereby merit Heaven and those whom you have not predestined are guaranteed to die either without baptism or otherwise in mortal sin and thereby deserve punishment in Hell. It is an ontological impossibility for a non predestined person to die in salvific grace. You have arranged history so as to guarantee that only the predestined (the elect) will die in salvific grace.

You inspire a scripture wherein you claim to desire to salvation of every human being. But you also reveal that you have chosen not to bring that desire about, instead opting to save only those few whom you selected at the beginning of time.

The problem

The doctrine of predestination makes a mockery of the claim that God holds a universal love for every human being. As in hypothetical I, my claims of magnanimity ring rather hollow if I arbitrarily leave a child I could have saved to drown. Likewise, Christian claims of a deity with a universal salvific will become incoherent if Christianity is efficacious only for a predestined few.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Hypothetical I
You are at a swimming pool. You approach the pool and notice two children who are starting to drown. You are a strong swimmer and you have the time and ability to save both. Instead, you opt to save one and to do nothing to save the other. Consequently, the child you declined to save drowns.

When questioned about this you become incredulous. You affirm that you could have saved both children but you nonetheless insist there was neither injustice nor dereliction in your choice to save only one rather than both. You insist that your act of rescue was an act of magnanimity to which neither child was entitled. You had no obligation to intervene at all and so everyone should be grateful for the rescue that did in fact occur.

Hypothetical II
You are God. You create Adam and Eve and foresee a future disobedience. This disobedience reprobates the entire species to Hell. To counter this you develop a plan. First you establish a people group called the Hebrews and give them a more or less exclusive tribal religion. It's a sacrificial religion with complex rules and regulations both moral and cultic. This religion does not confer salvific merit; it does nothing to save its adherents from their reprobation. But it establishes a messianic hope with which you lay the groundwork for your real plan; a universal religion open to all established by your own incarnated self. This new religion does confer salvific merit.

Anyone, regardless of their race, sex or social status who accepts baptism into the new religion and dies without unrepentant mortal sin is assured a place in a realm of eternal happiness. Those who do not accept baptism into this religion or otherwise die in unrepentant mortal sin will be left to their painful fate of eternal misery to which humanity by Adam was doomed. You have given humanity an out from their otherwise inevitable damnation. At the same time you respect the free will of your creatures enough as to not force this out upon them.

But there's a catch
You lied about the free will thing. This new religion (Christianity) which you have established while open to all is efficacious only to a few whom you yourself have predestined. It is well within your power to make it universally efficacious but you choose not to. Those whom you have predestined are guaranteed to die in your grace and thereby merit Heaven and those whom you have not predestined are guaranteed to die either without baptism or otherwise in mortal sin and thereby deserve punishment in Hell. It is an ontological impossibility for a non predestined person to die in salvific grace. You have arranged history so as to guarantee that only the predestined (the elect) will die in salvific grace.

You inspire a scripture wherein you claim to desire to salvation of every human being. But you also reveal that you have chosen not to bring that desire about, instead opting to save only those few whom you selected at the beginning of time.

The problem

The doctrine of predestination makes a mockery of the claim that God holds a universal love for every human being. As in hypothetical I, my claims of magnanimity ring rather hollow if I arbitrarily leave a child I could have saved to drown. Likewise, Christian claims of a God with a universal salvific will become incoherent if Christianity is efficacious only for a predestined few.
Hmm... I wonder if the logic is wrong.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
My reading of Calvinist theology suggests that it's not so much that God is evil, but that we can't/shouldn't try to understand it at all.

Frankly, the only possible defense I can give any credence to is that God has some "higher plan", known only to and understandable by only him, that serves some higher purpose, and we should just accept it because God is so far above us.

That's not to say that I actually support that line of thought, just that it's not totally illogical.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
My reading of Calvinist theology suggests that it's not so much that God is evil, but that we can't/shouldn't try to understand it at all.
I'm assuming the Thomist view of predestination over the Calvinist. Single predestination over double predestination. I come from a Catholic tradition.

Like Calvin, Aquinas teaches that God predestines the elect with no regard to their foreseen merits but purely out of the gratuity of his grace. Unlike Calvin, Aquinas denies that God actively predestines the reprobate to Hell. God simply passes over the reprobate to inevitably damn themselves on account of their freely chosen sins.

Personally, I think the difference is semantic. But not everyone agrees with me on that.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Hypothetical I
You are at a swimming pool. You approach the pool and you notice two children who are starting to drown. You are a strong swimmer and you have the time and ability to save both. Instead, you opt to save one and to do nothing to save the other. Consequently, the child you declined to save drowns.

When questioned about this you become incredulous. You affirm that you could have saved both children but you nonetheless insist there was neither injustice nor dereliction in your choice to save only one rather than both. You insist that your act of rescue was an act of magnanimity to which neither child was entitled. You had no obligation to intervene at all so everyone should be grateful for the rescue that did in fact occur.

Hypothetical II
You are God. You create Adam and Eve and you foresee a future disobedience. This disobedience reprobates the entire species to Hell. To counter this you develop a plan. First you establish a people group called the Hebrews and you give them a more or less exclusive tribal religion. It's a sacrificial religion with complex rules and regulations both moral and cultic. This religion does not confer salvific merit; it does nothing to save its adherents from their reprobation. But it establishes a messianic hope with which you lay the groundwork for your real plan; a universal religion open to all established by your own incarnated self. This new religion does confer salvific merit.

Anyone, regardless of their race, sex or social status who accepts baptism into the new religion and dies without unrepentant mortal sin is assured a place in a realm of eternal happiness. Those who do not accept baptism into this religion or otherwise die in unrepentant mortal sin will be left to their painful fate of eternal misery to which humanity by Adam was doomed. You have given humanity an out from their otherwise inevitable damnation. At the same time you respect the free will of your creatures enough as to not force this out upon them.

But there's a catch
You lied about the free will thing. This new religion (Christianity) which you have established while open to all is efficacious only to a few whom you yourself have predestined. It is well within your power to make it universally efficacious but you choose not to. Those whom you have predestined are guaranteed to die in your grace and thereby merit Heaven and those whom you have not predestined are guaranteed to die either without baptism or otherwise in mortal sin and thereby deserve punishment in Hell. It is an ontological impossibility for a non predestined person to die in salvific grace. You have arranged history so as to guarantee that only the predestined (the elect) will die in salvific grace.

You inspire a scripture wherein you claim to desire to salvation of every human being. But you also reveal that you have chosen not to bring that desire about, instead opting to save only those few whom you selected at the beginning of time.

The problem

The doctrine of predestination makes a mockery of the claim that God holds a universal love for every human being. As in hypothetical I, my claims of magnanimity ring rather hollow if I arbitrarily leave a child I could have saved to drown. Likewise, Christian claims of a deity with a universal salvific will become incoherent if Christianity is efficacious only for a predestined few.

I don't see God's foreknowledge of those who will be saved and others as negating our free will on the whole issue.
I also don't see the Gospel as the only possible way for God to have mercy on people at the judgement.
I do see God knowing and tolerating those who are evil and who will end up not saved however.
Imo your Catholic Church doctrine of mortal sin and forgiveness through absolution from a priest hasn't got much to do with the whole thing.

Putting it all together, the predestination you seem to be talking about is not the same as just foreknowledge of what people will freely choose.
God has taken the wages of sin for all people on Himself through He Son Jesus and that means there can be forgiveness for anyone at the judgement when their life is put on the balance.
However God does love all us humans even if He knows that there are those who will not be saved.
God does not force salvation on us.
God showed His love for us by taking the results of our sins on Himself in Jesus.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The doctrine of predestination makes a mockery of the claim that God holds a universal love for every human being.

You argue from a Christian theological perspective so this statement does not follow. You are actually arguing about "the (Christian) claim..."

From an Eastern advaita perspective, there is only Divinity and the apparent duality of creator and creation is illusion; no more real than a dream. As Nisargadatta Maharaj put it “Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.”

And as well, I take predestination in the same sense as what happens when you hit billiard balls with a cue ball. What happens is "predestined" by the laws of physics but that are possibilities for change outside that limited view. Someone could drop an orange on the table which changes everything.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
What if I reject both meanings of predestination that you have mentioned?
I believe there's another option.
But it's rather hard to explain.
What is actually predestined is that those who come to Christ will experience change. It's not about individuals being chosen or rejected based on nothing.
 
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