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One Problem with Capitalism?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
"The problem with capitalism is that it best rewards the worst part of us: the ruthless, competitive, conniving, opportunistic, acquisitive drives, giving little reward and often much punishment--or at least much handicap--to honesty, compassion, fair play, many forms of hard work, love of justice, and a concern for those in need."


-- Michael Parenti


Is Parenti substantially correct? Why or why not?
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
I would say it is truth but doesn't have to be if we as a people valued that over cheap good the market could reflect that. Remember spending money is like voting
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I would say it is truth but doesn't have to be if we as a people valued that over cheap good the market could reflect that. Remember spending money is like voting

I think government regulation is a much better way to prevent, say, corporations from dumping toxic wastes into the environment than consumers "voting" with their dollars.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
"The problem with capitalism is that it best rewards the worst part of us: the ruthless, competitive, conniving, opportunistic, acquisitive drives, giving little reward and often much punishment--or at least much handicap--to honesty, compassion, fair play, many forms of hard work, love of justice, and a concern for those in need."


-- Michael Parenti


Is Parenti substantially correct? Why or why not?

How is it bad to be competitive, acquisitive, or opportunist?

I don't see how it would give the ruthless or conniving the flip side, given that it is a societal-based economy, and that most consumers would prefer not to buy from a ruthless or conniving producer.

It doesn't give punishment to any of those things. Honesty? Not really, in fact I can't help but see it more honest. Compassion? It's still there, it's one major necessity for Capitalism. Fair play? It's very fair. In the ideal capitalist society, everyone is given equal opportunities, but not equal results. That's the only way to combine the two virtues of fairness and freedom. The last three, still don't see how he comes up with that stuff...

So in a nutshell - Nope, he's probably thinking of Corporatism like most people do...
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
How is it bad to be competitive, acquisitive, or opportunist?

I don't see how it would give the ruthless or conniving the flip side, given that it is a societal-based economy, and that most consumers would prefer not to buy from a ruthless or conniving producer.

It doesn't give punishment to any of those things. Honesty? Not really, in fact I can't help but see it more honest. Compassion? It's still there, it's one major necessity for Capitalism. Fair play? It's very fair. In the ideal capitalist society, everyone is given equal opportunities, but not equal results. That's the only way to combine the two virtues of fairness and freedom. The last three, still don't see how he comes up with that stuff...

So in a nutshell - Nope, he's probably thinking of Corporatism like most people do...

Sum, you're talking ideas, not facts. You're merely reasoning from A to B, without confirming B with empirical observations.

In fact, Sum, your honest capitalists are often screwing each other over -- this is why the courts are filled with lawsuits. Again, your compassionate capitalists are often dumping toxic wastes into other people's backyards. Witness most recently, fracking.

And I could go down the list countering each of your points with examples from the real world. Your view of capitalism only holds up in fantasy romances like those written by Ayn Rand.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
How is it bad to be competitive, acquisitive, or opportunist?

I don't see how it would give the ruthless or conniving the flip side, given that it is a societal-based economy, and that most consumers would prefer not to buy from a ruthless or conniving producer.

It doesn't give punishment to any of those things. Honesty? Not really, in fact I can't help but see it more honest. Compassion? It's still there, it's one major necessity for Capitalism. Fair play? It's very fair. In the ideal capitalist society, everyone is given equal opportunities, but not equal results. That's the only way to combine the two virtues of fairness and freedom. The last three, still don't see how he comes up with that stuff...

So in a nutshell - Nope, he's probably thinking of Corporatism like most people do...
Corporations are just aggregations of people, who gather for a common purpose, commercial, advocacy or other. Whatever people would do individually, corporations will also do, just on a generally larger scale. What does "corporatism" mean to you?

Btw, most of capitalism is about people cooperating with each other. Sure, sure, I get into scrapes with people who try to wrong me, but most of the time other businesses I deal with treat me as their ally.
 

illykitty

RF's pet cat
How is it bad to be competitive, acquisitive, or opportunist?

I don't see how it would give the ruthless or conniving the flip side, given that it is a societal-based economy, and that most consumers would prefer not to buy from a ruthless or conniving producer.

It doesn't give punishment to any of those things. Honesty? Not really, in fact I can't help but see it more honest. Compassion? It's still there, it's one major necessity for Capitalism. Fair play? It's very fair. In the ideal capitalist society, everyone is given equal opportunities, but not equal results. That's the only way to combine the two virtues of fairness and freedom. The last three, still don't see how he comes up with that stuff...

So in a nutshell - Nope, he's probably thinking of Corporatism like most people do...

There's studies show that competition is a detriment to our development. Competition dulls creativity in many ways, while cooperation fuels it. Look into the works of Alfie Kohn. There's even some videos I could link where he discuses the research he's done.

In capitalism someone always loses out - there's always someone who suffers. Either in a third world country or in your neighbourhood. For someone to win, there has to be a loser. Why do companies still use sweatshops? It's all about the profit, baby!

I honestly don't see this pink coloured world of capitalism. I don't see how it could ever benefit everyone. People keep trying to patch it up, or keep thinking it'll work... Truth is, that system is rigged to work only for a few.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
All true. Not to mention that it depends on social stratification through classes to exist, which keeps poverty going and creating wage slaves.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
How is it bad to be competitive, acquisitive, or opportunist?

Because this entails working against others.

I don't see how it would give the ruthless or conniving the flip side, given that it is a societal-based economy, and that most consumers would prefer not to buy from a ruthless or conniving producer.

Unless the product or service is being sold for a considerably cheaper value by them. Or unless they have a monopoly. Just to cite two examples.

It doesn't give punishment to any of those things. Honesty? Not really, in fact I can't help but see it more honest.

Being completely honest may not give you the best results in a highly competitive scenario.

Compassion? It's still there, it's one major necessity for Capitalism.

A major necessity? How so?

Fair play? It's very fair. In the ideal capitalist society, everyone is given equal opportunities, but not equal results.

This is extremely far from truth.
No one is given equal opportunities.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Oh, so that's why Wal-Mart is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. :rolleyes:
Walmart's suppliers & competitors would have a perspective different from the consumer,
who finds Wamart a warm & fuzzy retailer. When I travel, Walmart invites me to spend the
nite in their parking lot, & the have Subways right in the store for my breakfast.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Walmart's suppliers & competitors would have a perspective different from the consumer,
who finds Wamart a warm & fuzzy retailer. When I travel, Walmart invites me to spend the
nite in their parking lot, & the have Subways right in the store for my breakfast.

I'm not convinced that people actually find Walmart to be a "warm & fuzzy retailer" so much as poor and working class people having to shop there because it's cheap and there's not much else.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
"The problem with capitalism is that it best rewards the worst part of us: the ruthless, competitive, conniving, opportunistic, acquisitive drives, giving little reward and often much punishment--or at least much handicap--to honesty, compassion, fair play, many forms of hard work, love of justice, and a concern for those in need."


-- Michael Parenti


Is Parenti substantially correct? Why or why not?

He's spot on. Of course the problem he articulates is only one of a multitude. Capitalism sucks.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Sum, you're talking ideas, not facts. You're merely reasoning from A to B, without confirming B with empirical observations.

In fact, Sum, your honest capitalists are often screwing each other over -- this is why the courts are filled with lawsuits. Again, your compassionate capitalists are often dumping toxic wastes into other people's backyards. Witness most recently, fracking.

And I could go down the list countering each of your points with examples from the real world. Your view of capitalism only holds up in fantasy romances like those written by Ayn Rand.

I read his post a little differently. It seemed to me that he was speaking of the ideal capitalist system.

His post didn't suggest to me that he's out of touch with reality. I share his views. An ideal capitalist system would work this way.

Regardless of the flaws within capitalism, it would be dishonest to claim that there lacks fairness, opportunity and compassion.

If we were to approach this honestly, for many identified negatives - we could find a positive for comparison.

As one company ruthlessly destroys the environment - another pushes for green and clean.

As one company mistreats its employees - another invests in employee development and offers competitive benefits.

For those that cheat the system - there are others that play fair and because they want to.

For those that refuse to plant seeds in their communities -there are others who contribute generously thru various philanthropic/charitable avenues.

Do the negatives, realistically outweigh positives? Perhaps - in measurable and immeasurable ways. I do not believe alternatives to be without flaw and their own brand of unfairness and corruption.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I read his post a little differently. It seemed to me that he was speaking of the ideal capitalist system.

His post didn't suggest to me that he's out of touch with reality. I share his views. An ideal capitalist system would work this way.

Regardless of the flaws within capitalism, it would be dishonest to claim that there lacks fairness, opportunity and compassion.

If we were to approach this honestly, for many identified negatives - we could find a positive for comparison.

As one company ruthlessly destroys the environment - another pushes for green and clean.

As one company mistreats its employees - another invests in employee development and offers competitive benefits.

For those that cheat the system - there are others that play fair and because they want to.

For those that refuse to plant seeds in their communities -there are others who contribute generously thru various philanthropic/charitable avenues.

Do the negatives, realistically outweigh positives? Perhaps - in measurable and immeasurable ways. I do not believe alternatives to be without flaw and their own brand of unfairness and corruption.

Capitalism will never wipe out poverty. It depends on social stratification to exist. The only point of capitalism is the profit motive, the accumulation of finite capital in a small amount of private hands. It's immoral and unethical from its very foundations.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Capitalism will never wipe out poverty. It depends on social stratification to exist. The only point of capitalism is the profit motive, the accumulation of finite capital in a small amount of private hands. It's immoral and unethical from its very foundations.
What achievable system would you have replace it?
 
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