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Online ordination & Rabbis

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
I see that some interfaith organizations such as this one offer ordination online or by mail. After ordination one can select various titles: Pastor, Reverend, Priest, and so on. All these titles are pretty broad and open to interpretation depending upon the individual or sect. But "Rabbi" is also an option as a title even though organizations such as these usually have nothing to do with Judaism, and I suppose even a Gentile could choose that title. Is there anything unethical about this? It seems misleading to me.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
It's very misleading and a lot of Christians ministers do call themselves "rabbi", particularly when they're leading a "messianic" congregation. We had one in my hometown who was ordained through a Baptist seminary and called himself rabbi.

I think it's quite unethical to hijack a religion and pass it off as a "true" replacement of the original, especially when the goal is so often the conversion of the members of the original religion. The stated goal of many of the "messianic" groups is convert Jews to Christianity.

And then there's the whole issue of online and distance education for clergy; I've been involved with several rabbis ordained through a non-traditional program as part of the board of trustees for my congregation, and all but one were severely lacking in what we considered "core" knowledge.
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
It's very misleading and a lot of Christians ministers do call themselves "rabbi", particularly when they're leading a "messianic" congregation. We had one in my hometown who was ordained through a Baptist seminary and called himself rabbi.

I think it's quite unethical to hijack a religion and pass it off as a "true" replacement of the original, especially when the goal is so often the conversion of the members of the original religion. The stated goal of many of the "messianic" groups is convert Jews to Christianity.

And then there's the whole issue of online and distance education for clergy; I've been involved with several rabbis ordained through a non-traditional program as part of the board of trustees for my congregation, and all but one were severely lacking in what we considered "core" knowledge.

There is no doubt in my mind of course that "mail order" clergy generally speaking will not have the same type of training as other forms of clergy. I am also like you certainly opposed to Messianic Judaism for the most part and have concerns about some widespread teachings among Christians and parts of the New Testament that are unfair or have harmful consequences for the Jewish people. In fact the Episcopal Church is in the process of reviewing the lectionary to remove anti-Semitic content or associations. I still cringe during some of the lessons, particularly in the expanded three year cycle of readings.

But I am primarily concerned here with whether it is ethical to grant anyone who wishes it the title "Rabbi" simply for applying for a mail-order ordination. For example, there is a specific meaning of "priest" in Catholicism or Anglicanism, but it can also be a very broad term or have different meanings -- one might mean that one is a neo-Wiccan priest or priestess when choosing that title for example. Or one might simply use the term to refer to a sacrificial role, and that might fit into a broad emergent form of Christian ministry. Or one might wish to use this term to emphasize a belief in a universal priesthood. So even though the ordained priesthood means something specific to me within the Episcopal/Anglican tradition I come from I'm not offended that someone might use this title in a different sense in an interfaith organization, although such a person could not by virtue of that ordination claim apostolic succession as Anglicans and Catholics possess it. That would be false and thus offensive.

But the term "Rabbi" has Jewish associations. Is that term broad enough to be granted by interfaith organizations like this -- as I believe the words "reverend," "pastor," or even "priest" are or is this a case of misrepresentation and cultural misappropriation? In other words, hijacking an aspect of someone else's culture and passing it off as one's own?
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
But the term "Rabbi" has Jewish associations. Is that term broad enough to be granted by interfaith organizations like this -- as I believe the words "reverend," "pastor," or even "priest" are or is this a case of misrepresentation and cultural misappropriation? In other words, hijacking an aspect of someone else's culture and passing it off as one's own?
I think it's certainly a form of hijacking, and I think those who use the title without appropriate ordination are committing fraud.
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
I think it's certainly a form of hijacking, and I think those who use the title without appropriate ordination are committing fraud.

Can you elaborate on why the word "rabbi" unlike the word "priest" cannot be used in diverse or broad senses? I am merely trying to understand the concept of a rabbi.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
There is no doubt in my mind of course that "mail order" clergy generally speaking will not have the same type of training as other forms of clergy. I am also like you certainly opposed to Messianic Judaism for the most part and have concerns about some widespread teachings among Christians and parts of the New Testament that are unfair or have harmful consequences for the Jewish people. In fact the Episcopal Church is in the process of reviewing the lectionary to remove anti-Semitic content or associations. I still cringe during some of the lessons, particularly in the expanded three year cycle of readings.

But I am primarily concerned here with whether it is ethical to grant anyone who wishes it the title "Rabbi" simply for applying for a mail-order ordination. For example, there is a specific meaning of "priest" in Catholicism or Anglicanism, but it can also be a very broad term or have different meanings -- one might mean that one is a neo-Wiccan priest or priestess when choosing that title for example. Or one might simply use the term to refer to a sacrificial role, and that might fit into a broad emergent form of Christian ministry. Or one might wish to use this term to emphasize a belief in a universal priesthood. So even though the ordained priesthood means something specific to me within the Episcopal/Anglican tradition I come from I'm not offended that someone might use this title in a different sense in an interfaith organization, although such a person could not by virtue of that ordination claim apostolic succession as Anglicans and Catholics possess it. That would be false and thus offensive.

But the term "Rabbi" has Jewish associations. Is that term broad enough to be granted by interfaith organizations like this -- as I believe the words "reverend," "pastor," or even "priest" are or is this a case of misrepresentation and cultural misappropriation? In other words, hijacking an aspect of someone else's culture and passing it off as one's own?
In Orthodox circles, the term Rabbis is reserved for those who have passed a test covering certain (or all) areas of Jewish Law. Although perhaps technically not appropriate, it has also come to be used for anyone that is extremely well versed in Talmudic literature.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Can you elaborate on why the word "rabbi" unlike the word "priest" cannot be used in diverse or broad senses? I am merely trying to understand the concept of a rabbi.
Because it is a Hebrew term that has a specific meaning. A rabbi is an ordained Torah scholar and an authority on Jewish law; things that only exist within Judaism.
It would be same as referring to a Episcopal priest as a kannushi or gothi. While all three are priests, the latter two are very specific roles in regards to their respective religions.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The term "rabbi" is problematic. Some view it as an academic title -- reflecting a tested level of knowledge over particular areas of content. Others see it as a communal rank, affording the holder certain roles, rights and responsibilities unique to the position. In the most expansive sense it has been used to signify a level of knowledge and pedagogical position. Some background on the most general level:

http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/25868/does-an-orthodox-rabbi-have-to-have-semicha
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
Thanks! I conclude then that such organizations at least when selling this title are definitely unethical. What a shame.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Is there anything unethical about this? It seems misleading to me.

A simple reading of the FAQs on that site show that they aren't being misleading.
Q: What is the value of a D.D. degree?

A: Our Honorary Doctor of Divinity Degree is simply recognition of the fact that someone has made a donation to our Church. All honorary degrees are "unearned" since no studies are involved. Honorary degrees are simply recognition for something the recipient did for the institution that granted it. It makes many people feel good to have the degree and that is its value.

No studies and no value. They just take your money and let you call yourself whatever you want.
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
A simple reading of the FAQs on that site show that they aren't being misleading.


No studies and no value. They just take your money and let you call yourself whatever you want.

You don't see a problem with calling yourself something you aren't? Even when it involves someone's religious culture?
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
You don't see a problem with calling yourself something you aren't?

The people being misleading are the ones claiming to be rabbis. The school is being upfront that degrees that they bestow are unearned as they require no studies, only a monetary donation. They aren't misleading their purchasers that the degrees purchased have no value whatsoever.
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
A simple reading of the FAQs on that site show that they aren't being misleading.


No studies and no value. They just take your money and let you call yourself whatever you want.
That has got to be the craziest thing I have ever seen.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
That has got to be the craziest thing I have ever seen.

Diploma mills have been around for a while.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mill
A diploma mill (also known as a degree mill) is a company or organization who claims to be a higher education institution but which offers illegitimate academic degrees and diplomas for a fee. These degrees may claim to give credit for relevant life experience, but should not be confused with legitimate prior learning assessment programs.
 
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