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Only Atheists can be Truly Moral

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
But I thought atheism wasn't the opposite of theism? I thought atheism wasn't the 'off' switch to the 'on' switch of theism? I thought there just was no switch there. So why would you want to go looking for theists to debate with if there's nothing to be said?

Why would an atheist want to spend so much valuable debating this God he don't believe in?

Weird.

I don't believe in aliens. I think it's a silly idea. So why would I want to spend hours around alien websites seeking debate with people who do. Why would I want to do that?

Weird ...

No-one has ever killed or imprisoned others because of their belief in aliens. No-one has ever run for public office in order to impose their beliefs in aliens on others. No-one has ever tried to force science teachers to teach "alien abductions" in science class instead of actual science. None has insisted on tax exempt status because of their belief in aliens............

It is not weird to resist false beliefs being imposed upon others.

Don't understand the switch analogy.
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
One must be moral to be a Hebrew.
One must believe in `God` to be a Christian.
Jesus was supposedly the `Son` of `God`.
They both commanded morality from all.
Morality was commanded by Buddah.
Moraltiy was commanded by Brahma.
Entry into Nirvana was a moral need.
~
Atheists are moral because of what ?
~
I guess that was the question,
wasn't it ?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Actually, the root of the problem is this.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality

Everyone thinks their stuff doesn't stink. You, me, everyone.

They can only see one side of the story, and so they see the believers as immoral. Let me ask you something. Is it moral to want to protect your family and friends? To want to protect your country? I looked up "Is Jesus conservative" under images today, 2/3 of them were pictures basically asserting that Jesus would want heavily subsidized government care. Yes, these programs exist for a reason. They also cost the average person lots of money in taxes, money that in turn makes them poorer. Makes them have to work harder at their job, and eventually quit due to stress.

Or priests equating welcoming strangers as anywhere near the same level as being forced to welcome people who hurt others, who take your stuff, who are brutal and thuggish. Who is your neighbor in the good Samaritan story? It's the one who shows mercy. Jesus was peaceful, but he also believed in boundaries. Alot.

Did Jesus "welcome the stranger" when they tried to push him off a cliff? No. He for the most part stood up for himself, and believed others should also do so when necessary. While Jesus does not condone violence, in Luke 22:36 he does tell his disciples to go out and buy a sword. Note, this is different from Muhammad's "revelation" that now people can use force to convert others. This is only for self-defense, and it is clear that those who live by the sword die by it.

Okay, here's a reality check. Our government last term tried to sell us out. They tried to flood the country with immigrants, they tried to ruin our economy, they wrecked our healthcare (I cannot afford insurance right now, so I can't afford to be sick either. Thanks Obama!), and they tried to make the US like an EU country. Let's talk about how Sweden and Germany are suffering under these insane "moral" activities. Jesus agreed to paying the taxes of Rome, but he didn't actually protest the Jewish state. "Judea should be abolished and become a pagan state." No, Jesus did not say those words. He clearly believed in his faith as a Jew, but also believed in the civic duty to obey leadership. But government should not betray its people.

I fully support the right of people living in small towns to make an honest living as entrepreneurs. I fully support the deportation of immigrants, yes even if it comes to separating children from their parents. We do not owe random people favors, at the expense of our own flesh and blood. We do have charity, but it is far easier to do so from a position of steady income. Trust me, I lost my job, before I could donate to charities, now I can't. "The poor are always with us," Jesus said. Every day, I saw the poor, as part of my job at the library. Every day, I tried to help them. I donated to charities, I was happy to give. But I lived at my parent's because a normal person at my job would have part-time hours that make it hard even to hold an apartment. This is precisely what happens in a slump economy.

Is it selfish to want your loved ones and you to be happy and healthy? Yes, of course it is. But the alternative is perverse.

Jesus didn't say, "Love your neighbor not yourself." He said, "Love your neighbor as your self." This means staying clear of abusive behaviors in addition to having a kind heart that cares for others.
“Everyone thinks their stuff doesn’t stink” is entitlement.

As for the rest of your post, it’s quite a sermon. It’s off-topic, so I won’t tear it to shreds here; just suffice to say that evil is pervasive and you just proved my point with what you posted. Your examples are skewed and your biblical references are tortured. Please don’t quit your day job.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Because people don't rip children from their parents, based on Alien Sightings?

Because parents don't kick their gay kids out of the house (before 18) based on Alien Sightings?

Because people don't deny their children desperately needed medical care based on Alien Sightnings?

Because nobody who believes in Alien Sightings, wants to force giant stone monuments carved with "alien rules of acquisition"?

Theists do ALL of the above and worse....
SOME theists. SOME. You’re generalizing. That seldom works out well.

You appear to be on a crusade. That’s admirable; the things the wacko fundigelicals do pi$$ me off, too. But a doctor doesn’t cure the disease by killing the patient.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No-one has ever killed or imprisoned others because of their belief in aliens. No-one has ever run for public office in order to impose their beliefs in aliens on others. No-one has ever tried to force science teachers to teach "alien abductions" in science class instead of actual science. None has insisted on tax exempt status because of their belief in aliens............

It is not weird to resist false beliefs being imposed upon others.

Don't understand the switch analogy.
Not all religious people do those things.
 

ERLOS

God Feeds the Ravens
SOME theists. SOME. You’re generalizing. That seldom works out well.

You appear to be on a crusade. That’s admirable; the things the wacko fundigelicals do pi$$ me off, too. But a doctor doesn’t cure the disease by killing the patient.

Thank you! They use half truths and deliberate misunderstanding to make themselves feel so superior.

Rogues and killers down through history have always used 'God' to justify evil. Doesn't mean they believe in God or practice the 'love thy neighbour' that ALL faiths teach.

What are they doing on faith websites? They're mostly just trolling anyone who believes in God. Shooting fish in a barrel isn't very brave. If they want to challenge religion why don't they go shout in a mosque?

Lucky for Mother Teresa she died or they'd burn her as a witch, around here, if they could.

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Huma...other-Teresas-message-for-our-time-38390.html

But it's no use talking.
 
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ERLOS

God Feeds the Ravens
No-one has ever killed or imprisoned others because of their belief in aliens. No-one has ever run for public office in order to impose their beliefs in aliens on others. No-one has ever tried to force science teachers to teach "alien abductions" in science class instead of actual science. None has insisted on tax exempt status because of their belief in aliens............

It is not weird to resist false beliefs being imposed upon others.

Don't understand the switch analogy.
Well the switch analogy first: if you don't believe in God, why do you call yourself an atheist: ie: The opposite of zero? Do the math.

Second: a lot of people have falsely abused faith teachings for evil purposes, but they are not the only people who've ever done evil in the world.

Third: do you live in America? If not, why are you complaining about American style televangelist young earth Bible literalist gay hating fundamentalists as if they represent everyone else of all faiths, who believe in God?

Or are you going to tell me you too live in the UK secular democracy where you have to suffer other people pushing their belief on you all day?

Fourth: If your big selling point is: PROVE God exists; why cant you prove God DOESN'T exist?

Sigh ...
 
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Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
One must be moral to be a Hebrew.
One must believe in `God` to be a Christian.
Jesus was supposedly the `Son` of `God`.
They both commanded morality from all.
Morality was commanded by Buddah.
Moraltiy was commanded by Brahma.
Entry into Nirvana was a moral need.
~
Atheists are moral because of what ?
~
I guess that was the question,
wasn't it ?

It's a valid and reasonable question, IMO. Because being an atheist is simply asking of the claim: "god(s) is(are) real", "prove it-- show us the evidence".

That answer/reply says nothing about morality or ethics.

So. An atheist could be amoral, immoral, or the most moral human on the planet; being an atheist says nothing-- absolutely nothing-- about moral behavior.

Being a Secular Humanist, on the other hand? Has a whole lot to say about morality...

As does being a Secular Jew, or a Secular Buddhist, or a Modern Satanist for that matter...
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
SOME theists. SOME. You’re generalizing. That seldom works out well.

You appear to be on a crusade. That’s admirable; the things the wacko fundigelicals do pi$$ me off, too. But a doctor doesn’t cure the disease by killing the patient.

Read it again-- "some" is IMPLIED by the way I phrased it. If I had meant *all*, I certainly could have written "All theists".... but I deliberately did not do so.

Nice bit of PROJECTING STRAWMAN on your part, however..... be a shame if someone put a match to your straw-construct.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Thank you! They use half truths and deliberate misunderstanding to make themselves feel so superior..

Way to project a straw-man onto my comment. You suffer from the same "can't read" problem as the other guy.
Rogues and killers down through history have always used 'God' to justify evil. Doesn't mean they believe in God or practice the 'love thy neighbour' that ALL faiths teach..

No True Scotsman logical fallacy.
What are they doing on faith websites? They're mostly just trolling anyone who believes in God. Shooting fish in a barrel isn't very brave. If they want to challenge religion why don't they go shout in a mosque?.

As soon as you (yes--you in particular) quit trying to impose your faith under Rule Of Law, onto everyone else?

We'll quit.
Lucky for Mother Teresa she died or they'd burn her as a witch, around here, if they could..


No--- witch-burning is the exclusive domain of THEISTS.

I mean... how gullible do you need to be to believe in .... WITCHES?
But it's no use talking.

Indeed.... you keep projecting Straw Man and using logical fallacies...
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Read it again-- "some" is IMPLIED by the way I phrased it. If I had meant *all*, I certainly could have written "All theists".... but I deliberately did not do so.

Nice bit of PROJECTING STRAWMAN on your part, however..... be a shame if someone put a match to your straw-construct.
Poor implication. You should try harder to be specific. If you meant “some,” you should have said “some” and defined which ones you specifically mean. All we’re given, however, is “theists.” Are we to infer from your rebuttal here that we’re supposed to read your mind? Or do you think your mental powers so sublime that we should grasp what you’re thinking by some sort of deific magic on your part?

If you’d been writing a graduate paper, your slight would have gotten red marks.

But nice try putting your faux pas off on me.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Fourth: If your big selling point is: PROVE God exists; why cant you prove God DOESN'T exist?

Sigh ...

Don't have to prove the negative.

On a fundamental level, the very idea of "god" (whatever your definition, but especially **yours**) is such an obscenely complicated assumption? That any rational person who had not previously been exposed so often to the very idea, would immediately reject it as "ludicrous". Right up there with Bigfoot, Alien Abductions and the Tooth Fairy.

So the default, the base-level of things? Gods do not exist, simply because they are so complicated.

So. There is no need to prove they do not-- it is 100% up to theists, to show that they do.

Since the Dawn of Civilization? No theist has managed this fete--- indeed, typically they had to stoop to violence to "prove" their "god(s)" were real...
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
witch-burning is the exclusive domain of THEISTS
Case in point for my post above. Which theists? All of them? Do we all engage in witch burning? Or just the ones with whom you disagree? Or just the Catholic ones who support Mother Teresa? Or just the ones who get under your skin?

Plus, if we’re using “witch burning” metaphorically, there are PLENTY of other groups that engage in scapegoating and fearmongering and bigotry. I find your statement infantile and intentionally provocative.
 

ERLOS

God Feeds the Ravens
Way to project a straw-man onto my comment. You suffer from the same "can't read" problem as the other guy.


No True Scotsman logical fallacy.


As soon as you (yes--you in particular) quit trying to impose your faith under Rule Of Law, onto everyone else?

We'll quit.



No--- witch-burning is the exclusive domain of THEISTS.

I mean... how gullible do you need to be to believe in .... WITCHES?


Indeed.... you keep projecting Straw Man and using logical fallacies...
They still burn witches in Africa. Old women they like to make responsible for all the problems around them.

They're not 'theists'.

See? You're WRONG
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Gods do not exist, simply because they are so complicated
Your assertion that “gods are ‘complicated’” is your opinion. The space shuttle is possibly more complicated than most god-concepts, yet it exists. Plus, I never argue for the existence of God. Your accusation seems like an excuse for your disbelief. You’re grasping at straws.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
There is no need to prove they do not-- it is 100% up to theists, to show that they do.
Your stated religious preference says otherwise. As an “unbeliever,” you’re opposing something that is (belief, and by extension, the existence of the object believed to exist). That puts “belief” — and the object — in the default position. It’s a thing that you feel you have to “un.” IOW, you’re trying to disprove something. Sounds like there is some sort of need to disprove?
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
hey Bob,
As an atheist....give it up...let them believe as they believe.
It will make no difference after all,
there's no straw up there anyway !
See in the Cosmos.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
So you are saying that people or neither moral nor immoral, then?

I guess in a way I am, but unlike some of my positions, this isn't one Ive thought through too much.

Put it this way, we shorthand it. People who act morally are called 'moral people'. But without the actions, what are they?
 
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