Organized Religion = Communism

[jeffrey]

Seems to me that some religions are very similar to communism. You must believe what you are told to believe, do what you are told to do, pay what they tell you to pay, and if you don't, you're... well you might not get thrown in jail, but they kick you out. You're not allowed to have a mind of your own. You might think you do, but you're told what to believe.

 

[Buttons*]

Well, Communism on paper is not the same Communism we've seen in the past. Maybe this is similar to the way that religion on paper is not the same in practice.

*shrugs* As far as a system of goverment goes, i'd suppose they are similar because of their ideals built upon a utopic society. (which... will never happen) They all want equality and fairness, and people to work together for the common good. Most governmental ideas are based on religious texts. (correct me if i'm wrong)

 

[nutshell]

Yeah, living by some rules and standards you choose to follow is terrible.

 

[Buttons*]

Yeah, living by some rules and standards you choose to follow is terrible.

I dont remember Jeff saying that Communism was terrible...

I also think that Jeff has some bad common misconseptions of Communism as a whole...

 

[jeffrey]

Why is that? Communism is a great idea, but it takes away you, as a person. Everybody is supposed to be equal, but it never works out that way.

 

[jeffrey]

Yeah, living by some rules and standards you choose to follow is terrible.

But you're not choosing the rules. Someone else is for you.

 

[Buttons*]

Why is that? Communism is a great idea, but it takes away you, as a person. Everybody is supposed to be equal, but it never works out that way.

People never rise to their potential, it could work if people weren't so selfish.

 

[jeffrey]

People never rise to their potential, it could work if people weren't so selfish.

The ideals of it are nice. But realistically, it will not. But if you look at the dictatorship of Cuba and the old Russia, there are alot of similarities between that and some of the organized religions.

 

[No*s]

But you're not choosing the rules. Someone else is for you.

The solution, then, is to choose another religion that agrees with you there. Nobody forced me to believe Orthodox theology, and we are quite organized. I am Orthodox because I believe it. I submit, because I believe it to be revealed by God and guided by the Spirit.

Communism, OTOH, would simply jail me or kill me. Membership is less than optional.

 

[jeffrey]

The solution, then, is to choose another religion that agrees with you there. Nobody forced me to believe Orthodox theology, and we are quite organized.

Some, not all. There are also some religions that give you some freedom to disagree with some of their teachings. I find the Catholics to give you some freedom in your own personal beliefs. A baptist church we belonged to was 'believe what we believe or leave'... we left.

 

[jeffrey]

Also that same baptist church disagreed with us homeschooling our kids. A couple members even came by one day to inform us that they were taking our children to school to enroll them. They didn't know I would be home. Thought they could bully my wife into it. Like I said, it's some churches, not all. Believe what they tell you to believe.

 

[No*s]

Some, not all. There are also some religions that give you some freedom to disagree with some of their teachings. I find the Catholics to give you some freedom in your own personal beliefs. A baptist church we belonged to was 'believe what we believe or leave'... we left.

Then they weren't able to throw you in jail; you left .

I think I'll pose this as a counter-analysis of Communism and religion

Perhaps the most striking dissimilarity is that organized religion is an active attempt to build something, but not with an eye toward destruction. Communism, though, starts with destruction, and its ultimate goal (in Marx's and Engle's literature) is the destruction of the state and ultimate creation of a governmentless society where a man may one day be a fisherman, and the next a smith. There would be no laws, no restrictions on humans, because all those institutions were the result of class wars where one class tried to supress the other.

Rather than find similarity between organized religion and Communism, I would argue that there is a greater similarity between Communism and non-institutional religion. They both share an active desire to escape the establishment, and in most cases, a desire to actively attack and destroy it. In both cases, also, the goal is to restore the freedom of men that had been subsumed by these institutions.

As the system worked itself out, though, Communism was forced to see that not everyone would agree with it. The destruction of the borgois caused a new status quo, and those who obstructed the good end were threats to the new system. They were then jailed and attacked, because they contradicted the new system as much as the Communists contradicted its predecessor. In the end, this didn't eliminate classes. The people did not conform. The dictatorship of the proletariet, a necessary predecessor to the arrival of Communism and successor to the revolution, became the permanent stage, and the bourgois were simply replaced by the new ruling class. Communism, then, failed to grant true freedom.

I observe exactly the same phenomena among the people who oppose organized religion. In the first stage, they seek to tear down the status quo. When that stage is completed, they attempt to condition people with the new views. Not all people, though, agree. We can't all be united so simply. As a result, there is further conflict, and those who are not "organized" draw battlelines and seek to enforce their views, generally through social pressure (though I suspect that it will give way to law as well).

Organized religion, then, does not parallel Communism. I would say that it more parallels the ancient monarchies (or other such governments). To me, the anti-organized religion of the modern era shares the mentality of Communism more (inevitable, since they are both modern developments).

I decided to turn it around a little bit

EDIT:
Baptists are a decent example of this. They started as opponents of organized religion.

 

[Quiddity]

I echo these statements by No*s:
Perhaps the most striking dissimilarity is that organized religion is an active attempt to build something, but not with an eye toward destruction.

and:
Rather than find similarity between organized religion and Communism, I would argue that there is a greater similarity between Communism and non-institutional religion. They both share an active desire to escape the establishment, and in most cases, a desire to actively attack and destroy it. In both cases, also, the goal is to restore the freedom of men that had been subsumed by these institutions.
Although I agree with everything he said.

Perhaps it is the aura of authority that is felt by some people that would cause them to make the comparison. I felt this when I first came into the Catholic Church. Although I eventually stopped seeing it as them (Church leaders) vs. me. I began to see me as being part of the Catholic Church. The difference is unignorable to me and I'm at peace with it all.

 

[jeffrey]

I need to be at a pc. I can'l do the things I need to do to argue this.

 

[jeffrey]

Part of the problem is your arguement is for paper communism, instead of applied communism. The suppression of new ideas counter to the ruling establishment. The concept of brainwashing. The desire to of a 'dictator' to run the church, without your say in leadership.

 

[No*s]

Part of the problem is your arguement is for paper communism, instead of applied communism. The suppression of new ideas counter to the ruling establishment. The concept of brainwashing. The desire to of a 'dictator' to run the church, without your say in leadership.

I think you misunderstood my argument. I didn't arguing paper Communism alone; I outlined its ideals and explained part of the process that turned it into the USSR. I defined the ideals (however inadequately) that were the foundation of Communist revolutions, and then, I proceeded to their practical failures. If tried again, paper Communism will result in the exact same thing.

It is a logical error to separate Communist theory from Communist practice; the former begot the latter. That, basically, is the argument I had put forth. The rejection of organized religion for a non-institutional religion shares many of the same tendencies. Its theory will result in the same practice should it ever become dominant.

 

[jeffrey]

My apologies. Trying to read and drive. I'm not against all organized religion. But some, to me, and their doctrine, reminds me of communism, as in my former posts. When a organized religion prohibits freedom of thought, it starts to resemble communism, a dictatorship.

 

[No*s]

My apologies. Trying to read and drive. I'm not against all organized religion. But some, to me, and their doctrine, reminds me of communism, as in my former posts. When a organized religion prohibits freedom of thought, it starts to resemble communism, a dictatorship.

You can reread it later, when you're not on the phone. Communism is a technical, political philosophy to which institutional religions bear little resemblance, when we get to its details (they may on a superficial level, but that is a superficial level).

One fun thing would be (when you get off the phone lol) is to consider the nature of religion. It claims to be a resevoir of the highest truth, that of God. Since an organized religion claims to be a protector of that revelation, it neccessitates that it render some opinions verboten; truth is exclusive by its very nature. If you assert x, then you deny y (assuming exclusive claims). If we say that all truth-claims are on equal ground, then in reality, we do away with truth all together and have nihilism (another similarity between Communism and the rejection of organized religion, especially on the basis of restricting opinion, is that both require increasingly potent forms of nihilism).

I understand, though, that you cannot debate. Don't debate and drive. Get home then rebut .

 

[jeffrey]

One more point. Communism, when installed, attempts to repress organized religion, as something that might install ideals not in line with the government. Some organized religions attempt to persuade their members to vote a certain way, to install their form of government, spreading propaganda about others and other forms of religions.

 

[c0da]

When a organized religion prohibits freedom of thought, it starts to resemble communism, a dictatorship.

Are you confusing totalitarianism with communism?