Origin of the Reformation

[Rival]

Martin Luther is often cited as the man who brought about the Protestant Reformation, but I believe that he was merely the end product of something that had been brewing for perhaps 200 years beforehand. His predecessors Wycliffe, Hus, Tyndale are well-enough known and I believe these people were just as seminal. There were problems with the Church for a long time before the Reformation, which are comprehended by both Catholics and Protestants, and we could even go as far back as the Investiture Controversy whereby the Holy Roman Empire/what would become Germany had problems with the Pope and had wranglings with the Papacy for a long time prior to this.

Where would you put the germ of the Protestant Reformation?

@Augustus @exchemist @RestlessSoul @Kenny @Treks

 

[exchemist]

Martin Luther is often cited as the man who brought about the Protestant Reformation, but I believe that he was merely the end product of something that had been brewing for perhaps 200 years beforehand. His predecessors Wycliffe, Hus, Tyndale are well-enough known and I believe these people were just as seminal. There were problems with the Church for a long time before the Reformation, which are comprehended by both Catholics and Protestants, and we could even go as far back as the investiture controversy whereby the Holy Roman Empire/what would become Germany had problems with the Pope and had wranglings with the Papacy for a long time prior to this.

Where would you put the germ of the Protestant Reformation?

@Augustus @exchemist @RestlessSoul @Kenny @Treks

Gutenberg and the vernacular bible translations.

 

[Rival]

Gutenberg and the vernacular bible translations.

Vernacular translations happened throughout Middle Ages though, so what importantance would you attach to Gutenberg specifically?

 

[exchemist]

Vernacular translations happened throughout Middle Ages though, so what importantance would you attach to Gutenberg specifically?

The democratisation of information - the internet of its day. Anyone who could read could get their own copy of the bible, in their own language and try to interpret it for themselves, instead of relying on the priests. In my own lifetime I've seen the disappearance of various professions and trades, due to changes in technology leading to challenges to their relevance, often middlemen of various kinds, be they stockbrokers, typists, airline booking clerks, even doctors, to some extent. In this case the role under threat would be the priest, as a "midddleman" between the believer and the meaning of scripture.

More people could read. Exchange of ideas with groups of people became easier. And so the questioning became more insistent and better formulated. Who was it who said: "Erasmus laid the egg and Luther hatched it."?

But I make no claim to be a historian. All I'm doing is making a suggestion for others to knock down or build on.

 

[Treks]

I don't know enough to answer or contribute in any meaningful way.

But I do love Jan Hus.

 

[exchemist]

Bit more here about the Erasmus quote: The theology of Erasmus (Chapter 4) - The Cambridge Companion to Reformation Theology

 

[Rival]

I don't know enough to answer or contribute in any meaningful way.

But I do love Jan Hus.

I like to invite you to the conversation either way

 

[Debater Slayer]

I like to invite you to the conversation either way

You're too agreeable for a rival.

 

[metis]

Where would you put the germ of the Protestant Reformation?

There always has been challengers going all the way back to the 2nd century, but most of them either dropped out or were suppressed, some by force. Luther and other "reformers" succeeded because the political situation in Europe was divided, and they took advantage of that.

Just for the record, I grew up in a fundamentalist Lutheran church, so we heard tons about Luther.

 

[Rival]

fundamentalist Lutheran church

I didn't know this is a thing lmao.

 

[viole]

I didn't know this is a thing lmao.

The Church of Sweden is Lutheran, and it happily marries gays.

so much for being fundamentailist.

ciao

- viole

 

[exchemist]

The Church of Sweden is Lutheran, and it happily marries gays.

so much for being fundamentailist.

ciao

- viole

Yeah but @metis grew up in the States, where you even get Catholic fundamentalists....

 

[Heyo]

I didn't know this is a thing lmao.

Neither did I. For me, and I think most people in Europe, the Catholics are the conservatives and the Lutherans (here called "evangelische") are the progressives.

 

[anna.]

Yeah but @metis grew up in the States, where you even get Catholic fundamentalists....

Yes, they do indeed exist...

 

[Valjean]

Weren't Wycliffe, Hus, and Tyndale pretty quickly suppressed, though, before their ideas took off amongst the general public?
Luther managed to evade church authorities, and his seed fell on fertile ground.

 

[RestlessSoul]

The Reformation is not a period of European history I'm particularly knowledgeable about, unfortunately. I did do some reading around the English Civil War though; John Rees, in 'The Leveller Revolution', emphasised what a powerful tool the printing press was, and how it was used to publicise and promote subversive political and religious opinion in the febrile atmosphere of 17th Century England. Presses were supposedly licensed by the state, but London in the years leading up to Civil War was full of illegal presses.

As in 17th Century England, so in 15th and 16th Century Mitteleuropa, I'd imagine. So not just vernacular Bibles, but also political and religious tracts, and printed sermons, will have played a significant part in driving The Reformation.

 

[mangalavara]

I didn't know this is a thing lmao.

There are basically three kinds of Lutheran bodies in the US. First, there are the mainliners who are in communion with the European progressive/liberal Lutheran denominations. Then, there are the ones who are much like American evangelicals yet refuse to be in communion with non-Lutherans. Lastly, there are the fundamentalist Lutheran bodies that use the KJV and teach that it is worldly or sinful to wear makeup, watch television, and use contraceptives. From what I recall, some of these fundamentalist bodies condemn each other for not being strict or pure enough. At the end of the day, the fundamentalists are virtually unheard of among the mainliners and semi-evangelicals.

 

[exchemist]

There are basically three kinds of Lutheran bodies in the US. First, there are the mainliners who are in communion with the European progressive/liberal Lutheran denominations. Then, there are the ones who are much like American evangelicals yet refuse to be in communion with non-Lutherans. Lastly, there are the fundamentalist Lutheran bodies that use the KJV and teach that it is worldly or sinful to wear makeup, watch television, and use contraceptives. From what I recall, some of these fundamentalist bodies condemn each other for not being strict or pure enough. At the end of the day, the fundamentalists are virtually unheard of among the mainliners and semi-evangelicals.

I have to say I smiled to read this. Fundamentalism of any kind seems to be intrinsically fissiparous. The search for "purity" inevitably leads to exclusivism and thence to denunciation of portions of the initial group for heterodoxy - and splitting away. You see this in religious denominations and, rather amusingly, in far-left politics.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I have to say I smiled to read this. Fundamentalism of any kind seems to be intrinsically fissiparous. The search for "purity" inevitably leads to exclusivism and thence to denunciation of portions of the initial group for heterodoxy - and splitting away. You see this in religious denominations and, rather amusingly, in far-left politics.

Oh go on then...

 

[metis]

I didn't know this is a thing lmao.

Here in the States, yep. The Wisonsin Synod is the most fundamentalist followed by the Missouri Synod. The most liberal is the ELCA Synod, which is pretty much in line with the Scandinavian Lutheran churches.