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Original Sin
- Thread starter Bishka
- Start date
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
I voted other because whilst we don't believe in inherited guilt (which is the Augustinian idea of Original Sin and what most people mean by the phrase) we do believe that the Fall corrupted human nature. In other words, nobody is held accountable for Adam's sin but they do suffer the natural consequences of it: death and a tendency to sin. Usually we refer to this as the Ancestral Sin, but it's also perfectly valid to call it Original Sin so long as you clarify exactly what is meant by the term.
James
James
Bishka
Veteran Member
I believe that Adam had to commit that sin, if we wanted to come to earth, he had to, because in the Garden of Eden there was no knowledge of good and evil, pleasure and pain. He was command to procreate, but had no knowledge of it. He had to partake of the fruit in order to gain that knowledge.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Do I vote "no" or "not Christian" ?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I don't believe in sin, or that behavior is an inheritable trait.
Best way to answer that it to get someone else do it............
http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/1247543.html
As the one condemned to die hung from the spikes thrust through his feet and hands, he would not be able to get air into his lungs. A small footrest at the base of the cross would enable the crucified to push himself up, get a gulp of air, and then sink back down again. Crucifixion was not designed to bring about a quick death; it was designed to humiliate a person.
Of course, Jesus knew from the very beginning that He had come to this earth to die for the sins of humanity. He also knew that He would make this sacrifice on a Roman cross. If there had been any other way, do you think that God would have sent His Son to suffer like this? If there had been any other way we could have been forgiven, then God surely would have found it. If living a good moral life would get us to heaven, then Jesus would have never died on the cross for us. But He did die, because there was and is no other way. He had to pay the price for our sin.
It all began in the Garden of Eden. Because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit when God had said, In the day you eat of it you shall surely die (Genesis 2:17 nkjv), they not only faced physical death, but spiritual death as well. When Adam and Eve sinned, in principle, we all sinned (see Romans 5:12). Sin is like an infectious disease that has spread throughout humanity. We were all born with it.
Have you ever noticed how easy it is to sin? We dont need to be taught how to sin, but we must be taught how to do right. We must teach a child manners, but we dont need to teach a child how to sin. It comes down to this: We are not sinners because we sin; rather, we sin because we are sinners. No matter how moral or religious we are, we still sin.
This is where the cross comes in, because we were separated from a holy and perfect God by our sin. But God loved us so much that He became a man and walked among us and went to a cross and died in our place and paid the price for every sin that we have ever committed.
The Bible says that when Jesus died on that cross, He canceled the record that contained the charges against us. At the cross, Jesus dealt a decisive blow against Satan and his demon powers. At the cross, Jesus purchased the salvation of the world. This message is so deep and profound that you could spend the rest of your life studying it and still not grasp its full significance. Yet it is so simple that even a child can understand it. Still, many people do not understand the significance of what took place on that Roman cross 2,000 years ago. Jesus died so that we might live.
If ever you are tempted to doubt Gods love for you, then take a long look at the cross. It wasnt the spikes that held Jesus there. It was His love for you.
http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/1247543.html
As the one condemned to die hung from the spikes thrust through his feet and hands, he would not be able to get air into his lungs. A small footrest at the base of the cross would enable the crucified to push himself up, get a gulp of air, and then sink back down again. Crucifixion was not designed to bring about a quick death; it was designed to humiliate a person.
Of course, Jesus knew from the very beginning that He had come to this earth to die for the sins of humanity. He also knew that He would make this sacrifice on a Roman cross. If there had been any other way, do you think that God would have sent His Son to suffer like this? If there had been any other way we could have been forgiven, then God surely would have found it. If living a good moral life would get us to heaven, then Jesus would have never died on the cross for us. But He did die, because there was and is no other way. He had to pay the price for our sin.
It all began in the Garden of Eden. Because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit when God had said, In the day you eat of it you shall surely die (Genesis 2:17 nkjv), they not only faced physical death, but spiritual death as well. When Adam and Eve sinned, in principle, we all sinned (see Romans 5:12). Sin is like an infectious disease that has spread throughout humanity. We were all born with it.
Have you ever noticed how easy it is to sin? We dont need to be taught how to sin, but we must be taught how to do right. We must teach a child manners, but we dont need to teach a child how to sin. It comes down to this: We are not sinners because we sin; rather, we sin because we are sinners. No matter how moral or religious we are, we still sin.
This is where the cross comes in, because we were separated from a holy and perfect God by our sin. But God loved us so much that He became a man and walked among us and went to a cross and died in our place and paid the price for every sin that we have ever committed.
The Bible says that when Jesus died on that cross, He canceled the record that contained the charges against us. At the cross, Jesus dealt a decisive blow against Satan and his demon powers. At the cross, Jesus purchased the salvation of the world. This message is so deep and profound that you could spend the rest of your life studying it and still not grasp its full significance. Yet it is so simple that even a child can understand it. Still, many people do not understand the significance of what took place on that Roman cross 2,000 years ago. Jesus died so that we might live.
If ever you are tempted to doubt Gods love for you, then take a long look at the cross. It wasnt the spikes that held Jesus there. It was His love for you.
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
Becky,
I believe I answered your question with a resounding no, or was that comment aimed at Michel rather than the board at large?
Michel,
What do you mean by Original Sin? Do you mean inherited guilt for Adam's sin a la Bl. Augustine or something more like the Ancestral Sin of Orthodox theology (please ask me to explain further if what I've written so far on this is unclear)? I ask because I cannot see how the view you've posted here is dependant in any way upon Augustinian Original Sin. And, given that for some four centuries after the Crucifixion nobody raised such an idea, the early Christians would of necessity agree, even in the west where there often seems to have been an overemphasis on the Crucifixion to the detriment of other aspects of the Incarnation.
James
I believe I answered your question with a resounding no, or was that comment aimed at Michel rather than the board at large?
Michel,
What do you mean by Original Sin? Do you mean inherited guilt for Adam's sin a la Bl. Augustine or something more like the Ancestral Sin of Orthodox theology (please ask me to explain further if what I've written so far on this is unclear)? I ask because I cannot see how the view you've posted here is dependant in any way upon Augustinian Original Sin. And, given that for some four centuries after the Crucifixion nobody raised such an idea, the early Christians would of necessity agree, even in the west where there often seems to have been an overemphasis on the Crucifixion to the detriment of other aspects of the Incarnation.
James
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
Michel,
I ask because the part you've quoted above again does sound like the Augustinian idea but is written in ambiguous language.
Do you believe that
1 We are all born sinful because the guilt of Adam's sin is inherited by all his descendants as a punishment from God.
or
2 Nobody is born sinful because God does not punish anyone for his father's sins but that we all suffer the natural consequences of the Fall in that we are mortal and have a tendency to sin (because we share the substance of our ancestors).
The first view is the Augustinian one, which most people appear to mean by the term Original Sin. The second view is that of Orthodox Theology, which we usually refer to as the Ancestral Sin. I find the former both wrong-headed and repugnant as such a punishment would be unjust (like beating my as yet unborn grandson in revenge for my son's naughtiness). The latter turns the fall into an unfortunate but inevitable consequence of turning from God and, hence, is no punishment at all.
Hope that clarifies my question for you.
James
I ask because the part you've quoted above again does sound like the Augustinian idea but is written in ambiguous language.
Do you believe that
1 We are all born sinful because the guilt of Adam's sin is inherited by all his descendants as a punishment from God.
or
2 Nobody is born sinful because God does not punish anyone for his father's sins but that we all suffer the natural consequences of the Fall in that we are mortal and have a tendency to sin (because we share the substance of our ancestors).
The first view is the Augustinian one, which most people appear to mean by the term Original Sin. The second view is that of Orthodox Theology, which we usually refer to as the Ancestral Sin. I find the former both wrong-headed and repugnant as such a punishment would be unjust (like beating my as yet unborn grandson in revenge for my son's naughtiness). The latter turns the fall into an unfortunate but inevitable consequence of turning from God and, hence, is no punishment at all.
Hope that clarifies my question for you.
James
Fluffy
A fool
My beliefs on original sin are incredibly complex. I do not feel that when I say "original sin" I mean quite the same thing as Christians do but a basic outline is that I have original sin, but nobody else does and everybody else should believe that they have original sin but nobody other than themselves has it.
I formulated this belief independently of the Christian belief in original sin but when I came across at when I was about 10, I realised how closely the two beliefs were linked in their methods and aims, as I saw them at any rate.
I formulated this belief independently of the Christian belief in original sin but when I came across at when I was about 10, I realised how closely the two beliefs were linked in their methods and aims, as I saw them at any rate.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Huh? Are you saying that He died on the cross so that you could be forgiven for your sins, and so that I could be forgiven for my sins, but that somehow His death didn't cover Adam's sin and we, who had no part in that sin, are still being held accountable for it?michel said:I said yes, because that is why Christ died on the cross for us.