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Origins of the Quran/Islam - various academic perspectives

Shad

Veteran Member
If you had never observed it then how could you conclude it is false? Let alone your assertion is baseless, without any scholar proof to back it.

Your idea of observation are fallacious and unrealistic. You never observed God, Muhammad nor Gabriel. You own argument refutes your religion. Beside the evidence is enough to show that such an event didn't happen

Claim X cities was destroyed in Y year. Evidence shows that X cities were not destroy in Y years but centuries before Y.Hence the story is a fiction.

Which cities do you refer?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_surviving_and_destroyed_Canaanite_cities

I am asking you the academic source instead of a nonsense accusation. Is it sound stupid?

When you ignored the very reference of the lectures I mentioned twice already then yes you sound stupid. Again I guess I have to do the work for you since you are inept.

http://www.amazon.ca/What-Biblical-Writers-Know-When/dp/080282126X
http://www.amazon.ca/Were-Early-Israelites-Where-They/dp/0802844162
http://www.amazon.ca/The-Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Ancient/dp/0684869136
http://www.amazon.com/The-Oxford-History-Ancient-Egypt/dp/0192804588
https://www.andrews.edu/archaeology/archive/merling/newpage5.htm

You can go watch the lectures I mentioned for free which covers a lot of evidence already within the above books by various experts.
 
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use_your_brain

Active Member
Your idea of observation are fallacious and unrealistic. You never observed God, Muhammad nor Gabriel. You own argument refutes your religion. Beside the evidence is enough to show that such an event didn't happen

Claim X cities was destroyed in Y year. Evidence shows that X cities were not destroy in Y years but centuries before Y.Hence the story is a fiction.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_surviving_and_destroyed_Canaanite_cities



When you ignored the very reference of the lectures I mentioned twice already then yes you sound stupid. Again I guess I have to do the work for you since you are inept.

http://www.amazon.ca/What-Biblical-Writers-Know-When/dp/080282126X
http://www.amazon.ca/Were-Early-Israelites-Where-They/dp/0802844162
http://www.amazon.ca/The-Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Ancient/dp/0684869136

You can go watch the lectures I mentioned for free which covers a lot of evidence already within the above books by various experts.

does the Quran state the wrong thing about Canaanite cities?
do you talk about the Bible or the Quran? I am little bit confused.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
does the Quran state the wrong thing about Canaanite cities?

***** I already told you Joshua and Moses are fictional. Treating a fiction as history is a falsehood

do you talk about the Bible or the Quran? I am little bit confused.

Both and Islamic tradition hence why I mentioned Tabari. Regardless treating a mythological figure as if he was historical is a falsehood, not true, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.
 
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use_your_brain

Active Member
Okay at least I know you are stupid now. I already told you Joshua and Moses are fictional. Treating a fiction as history is a falsehood



Both and Islamic tradition hence why I mentioned Tabari. Regardless treating a mythological figure as if he was historical is a falsehood, not true, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

As I know my Quran doesn't mention Joshua in that verse. Let alone you don't know either whether Joshua figure is a fictional figure or not.
If the science proven Tabari was wrong then Tabari was wrong. But, don't we talk about the Quran instead of Tabari? Who is Tabari again?
 
The Quran, the central religious text of Islam, contains references to more than fifty people and events also found in the Bible.

Congratulations, you have discovered the little known fact that Islam is part of the Abrahamic tradition.

By thinking this constitutes some kind of supporting point you keep proving:

1) You don't understand what plagiarism is
2) You have very little knowledge on this subject
3) You have an uncritical, uncurious and highly credulous mind
4) You have very little understand of academic history in general (despite pretending that you actually lecture in it)
5) You are very anti-academic; you are currently the creationist posting in a thread about science. That guy that you mock in other threads is you in this thread; the person arguing stubbornly from a perspective of ignorance, lack of understanding and a wilful desire to avoid educating yourself


This is a good read. So here we cannot say the bible was plagiarized, but we can say Abrahamic traditions were plagiarized.



http://wn.com/quran_copied_apocrypha!_blatant_plagiarism!

Quran copied Apocrypha! Blatant Plagiarism!

The Apocryphal gospels which are plagiarised by the Koran include: The Gospel of James, or Protevangelium (140-170 AD) The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew (5th Century- 6th Century AD) The History of Joseph the Carpenter (5th Century AD) The Gospel of The Nativity of Mary The Arabic Gospel of The Infancy of The Saviour (5th Century AD) The Infancy Gospel of Thomas (80-105 AD) All of theses Gospels have stories which were inserted into the 7th Century Koran. Its Undeniable that Christianity had a huge influence upon Islam and the formation of the Koran. As Mohammad knew nothing of Jesus who lived 600 years earlier he had to rely on the Apocryphal stories in his Koran

Why do you keep posting low quality links and think you are bringing something new and insightful to the table that nobody else has considered. Academic articles are 'worthless' but blurbs for a polemical video are 'a good read'.

I repeatedly tried to get you to look at 'The Quran in its historical context' by GS Reynolds (ed.), but you were more interested in trying to prove he was a Muslim apologist than actually go as far as looking even at the table of contents (this is when you failed to understand the difference between a book title and biographical information about the author).

It discusses points such as these in detail and in proper historical context. Reynolds, whose work you dismissed as worthless despite never reading him, advocates trying to understand the meaning of Quranic passages through recourse to the Bible and para-Biblical traditions. There is a school of thought that believes misinterpretations occurred when medieval scholars, lacking in historical understanding of the origins of Islam and knowledge of the Abrahamic traditions tried to carry out exegesis without understanding the material alluded to.

I've linked you to this short article at least 3 times now, but you haven't read it as it is not polemical enough for your agenda. Worth a read though:

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2009/11/reading-the-quran-through-the-bible

If you want to stop being the creationist in the science thread, why don't you read that link and have a look at the book too?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
As I know my Quran doesn't mention Joshua in that verse. Let alone you don't know either whether Joshua figure is a fictional figure or not.

Tabari clearly states exactly what it is. Guess I have to teach a Muslim what about their own religion

http://sunnahonline.com/library/stories-of-the-prophets/621-story-of-yusha-ibn-nun-joshua-the
http://www.islamiclandmarks.com/jordan/tomb-of-yusha-as
http://www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/joshua.html
https://books.google.ca/books?id=pmpSs_n3dNEC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=joshua+quran&source=bl&ots=jhJTWGVzXf&sig=j_JbXYOkcGUi5HIJOqohP-uf4wg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiv5cTo6bPKAhVH5GMKHa4YBQ84FBDoAQgwMAU#v=onepage&q=joshua quran&f=false

If the science proven Tabari was wrong then Tabari was wrong. But, don't we talk about the Quran instead of Tabari? Who is Tabari again?

No it shows the Quran is wrong as Moses is clearly mentioned multiple times but is a fiction. It mentions the Exodus multiple times but it is a myth. Joshua is only secondary. Moses is mentioned in the Quran over and over as Muhammad uses him as closest to him as a reflection. Both were exiled, both brought a "reformed" religion to those that abandoned and/or distorted it. Both took their people away from the oppressors. Both conquered polytheists. Moses is Muhammad's template

Tabari is only the foremost expert on the Quran of his time and modern times....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Tabari
http://www.britannica.com/biography/al-Tabari
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Why would I believe a story which is fictional is true....

illogical tripe ;)
You assume that billions of people are stupid enough to believe what you term 'fiction' as the truth of our reality. Do you really think that these people are so much less clever than you are?

I am 100% sure that millions of them are as clever, if not more clever, than you are. The only conclusion that I can come to is:

YOUR CLAIM THAT BIBLICAL STORIES ARE FICTION IS YOUR OPINION ONLY


..and don't give me this 'historical proof' tripe .. it's worth aread what historians have to say about it, but is not definitive. That would be impossible. I'm also aware that historians base their opinion on some details in the Bible which might not be accurate .. that wouldn't help coming to a correct conclusion either
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You assume that billions of people are stupid enough to believe what you term 'fiction' as the truth of our reality

Were not assuming anything here. We know many religious people refuse facts.

We know islam plagiarized this mythology, and now it has itself caught in a logical trap as we now know what the human authors of the koran did not.

Israelites origins are from displaced Canaanites, and the bible and koran are factually wrong about this history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah

The Israelite ethnic identity had been created, not from the Exodus and a subsequent conquest, but from a transformation of the existing Canaanite-Philistine cultures
 

Shad

Veteran Member
illogical tripe ;)

No it isn't since I have evidence and you have fake new stories and a fraud's work. It is amusing to see another Muslim parrot me once I introduce more complex words into their vocabulary. Would you like a cracker?

You assume that billions of people are stupid enough to believe what you term 'fiction' as the truth of our reality. Do you really think that these people are so much less clever than you are?

Billions of people are barely functional humans. They have enough intelligence to perform the mundane tasks common to manual labour which does not involve much thought nor education. Why would I expect billions to understand a field they are ignorant of?

Considering many have no idea what archaeology has discovered it is not a question of being clever but that of education.

I am 100% sure that millions of them are as clever, if not more clever, than you are. The only conclusion that I can come to is:

Sure. Some may know how to fix cars as mechanics better than I do. Some are doctors thus know medicine better than I do. However when it comes to archaeology all these people know nothing about it at all.

YOUR CLAIM THAT BIBLICAL STORIES ARE FICTION IS YOUR OPINION ONLY

No it is justifed by evidence for my view and the complete lack of evidence for you view.


..and don't give me this 'historical proof' tripe .. it's worth aread what historians have to say about it, but is not definitive. That would be impossible. I'm also aware that historians base their opinion on some details in the Bible which might not be accurate .. that wouldn't help coming to a correct conclusion either

No there is a lack of evidence supporting the claims of the Bible and Quran thus the conclusion is justified. Whereas your view has zero evidence thus is unjustified and irrational. Absolutes are from religion and religion only yet no religion has yet to prove any of their claims as true. Besides you attempted to uses your fraudulent archaeology sources to counter my view. You hold a double standard. When a subject helps you accept it willingly to the point that you post a fake new sites like a fool. When it doesn't you ignore you previous comments. Remember you said there was tangible proof for the Exodus until I exposed your sources as a fraud... Now history doesn't matter. At no point did you say your sources were opinions, you declared these sources as a fact. Your fallacious reasoning is hilarious, son.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
..and don't give me this 'historical proof' tripe .. it's worth aread what historians have to say about it, but is not definitive.

Actually it is. It is based on facts dug up from the earth in archeology.

That would be impossible

Your incorrect.

I'm also aware that historians base their opinion on some details in the Bible which might not be accurate .. that wouldn't help coming to a correct conclusion either

False

None of it comes from the bible. It comes from archeology and anthropology and science. It proves the bible as incorrect as the koran.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
When you ignored

Ignored?

When did you address any of these?

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muhammads_Plagiarism

Genesis 1:1-5

Bible:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.
Genesis 1:1-5 - KJV

Qur'an:
Praise be God, Who created the heavens and the earth, and made the darkness and the light. Yet those who reject Faith hold (others) as equal, with their Guardian-Lord.
Qur'an 6:1
And We appoint the night and the day two portents. Then We make dark the portent of the night, and We make the portent of the day sight-giving, that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the computation of the years, and the reckoning; and everything have We expounded with a clear expounding.
Qur'an 17:12
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Some are doctors thus know medicine better than I do. However when it comes to archaeology all these people know nothing about it at all.

Heaven/paradise will not include people that think they are 'super-clever' .. your pride in your intelligence being above the majority is leading you wildly astray. Good luck to you ..

I'm content to be a "low-IQ" believer, and thank God for it! :)
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Heaven/paradise will not include people that think they are 'super-clever' .. your pride in your intelligence being above the majority is leading you wildly astray. Good luck to you ..

Religious rhetoric, nothing more. I have confidence in my education against those that are uneducated in my field of study. You only see pride since your claims failed by using fake news sources and frauds. This exposed you as an inept uneducated fool so rather than acknowledge you made drastic errors in your fumbling apologistics you declare that I will not go to heaven. Yet you are speaking blasphemy since according to Islam God is my judge, not you. Besides your mythical God's threats have no impact on me. You might as well claim magic elves are going to beat me up. You threats and your Gods are that of a child.

I'm content to be a "low-IQ" believer, and thank God for it! :)

****
 
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Shad

Veteran Member

You replied to a comment never sent to you. Read what you reply to....




A site ran by Christians. What is next are you going to link me answering-islam? I guess you have no idea what paraphrasing is. Here this will help out a person that claims to lecture in a university yet does not know the difference between plagiarism and paraphrasing. This is something I learned in grade 10...

http://www.uc.utoronto.ca/paraphrase
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
None of it comes from the bible. It comes from archeology and anthropology and science. It proves the bible as incorrect as the koran.

That is total rubbish! How can you prove that stories in the Bible are fiction without reference to them?

As I've already said, the abscence of archeological evidence does not prove anything at all Your assumption is that if they were true, then we would see the archeological evidence. The difference between you and me is that you see mankind with his science as "very smart indeed", whereas I believe that the intelligence that we have is measured.

Some people thank God for what they have, including intelligence .. some people think that they are the smartest of all :D
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I guess you have no idea what paraphrasing is

Paraphrase may attempt to preserve the essential meaning of the material being paraphrased. Thus, the (intentional or otherwise) reinterpretation of a source to infer a meaning that is not explicitly evident in the source itself qualifies as "original research," and not as paraphrase.
 
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