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other religionists quote their scriptures well,what about us?
- Thread starter sampuna
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
how often do you hear a Buddhist talk full of scriptural quotes? Within my own study circle, I'm trying to back whatever that is presented with quotes from the scriptures
Probably because the Buddha's teachings all focus on the mind. "Since the mind itself is the Buddha, and the Buddha is none other than the mind, what Buddha could there be outside yourself?" WND V1 (104).
We should express ourselves through our writings, through great compassion (LS 138) "The World-Honored One is very difficult to encounter. We beg you in your great mercy and compassion" and that of wisdom and purity "We desire the wisdom eye of foremost purity such as the World-Honored One possesses" and meditation. "[The Buddha] entered into meditation in a quiet room, with a single mind siting in a single place for eighty-four thousand kalpas" (139) in perfect tranquility "After the Buddha had entered peaceful tranquility, they continued to proclaim, helping to convert others to the Law." (139)
I sometimes find it hard to talk like Christians by backing up my beliefs through scriptures of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren Diashin's Writings. Probably because in Buddhism it isn't about evangelizing, more about being aware for yourself the Buddha-nature within you. (To those who believe in Buddha-nature, of course.)
What ye think?
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
how often do you hear a Buddhist talk full of scriptural quotes? Within my own study circle, I'm trying to back whatever that is presented with quotes from the scriptures
It's a good practice to use sutta quotes in talks and discussions, but it's also important to reference them properly. Too often we see fake Buddha quotes because people are too lazy to check the source material. The other advantage of referencing is that it allows others to look for themselves if they wish.
On the other hand there is a difference between knowing what a sutta says and understanding it's real meaning. Though of course if you don't even know what a sutta says because you haven't read it then how can you hope to understand it?
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
I've quoted suttas many times, but never to evangelise.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
But where do you think the wisdom comes from? The suttas also describe Buddhist practice in detail, the methods by which we attain wisdom.
Orbit
I'm a planet
Don't overthink it...
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
Do you mean that the suttas don't contain revealed truths which followers have to take on faith? Yes, that's true, though I'm not sure how that's relevant to the OP. And of the course the Kalama Sutta is itself a sutta!
Note that the Kalama Sutta also advises against "considering pros and cons" as you put it, the basic message of the sutta is about seeing which qualities are skillful.
"So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them."
Kalama Sutta: To the Kalamas
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Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
I don't get your point, could you clarify it?
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Orbit
I'm a planet
It's a matter of emphasis, that's all. Sure the scriptures are a roadmap, but consciousness is the terrain, and where the living wisdom is. The words are a map. Maps are important, instructions are important, but they aren't the terrain, where the actual work is done. The words point to wisdom; we wouldn't want to stare at the finger and miss the moon. That's what I mean.
Vishvavajra
Active Member
Knowing your scriptures is a fine thing, but they are merely teaching tools. They do not encompass the teachings, much less the totality of practice. They are not any kind of final authority or arbiter. Fundamentalist attitudes towards scripture are particularly toxic.
The attitude towards scripture that the Abrahamic religions have is mostly alien to the Buddhist tradition, although it's common for converts to carry that baggage with them without realizing it.
The attitude towards scripture that the Abrahamic religions have is mostly alien to the Buddhist tradition, although it's common for converts to carry that baggage with them without realizing it.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
Well, that's a very Zen view. That's fine, but bear in mind that other Buddhist traditions have a different approach
I'm not personally not certain scripture should ever be taken as central to teaching or pratice.
If I am not mistaken, both some of the very first disciples and Bodhidharma are believed to have emphasized the living transmission of Dharma over the scriptures. IMO everyone should.
If I am not mistaken, both some of the very first disciples and Bodhidharma are believed to have emphasized the living transmission of Dharma over the scriptures. IMO everyone should.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
I agree with much of that, though as I said the methods of practice themselves are also described in the suttas. Again, it depends on which school we are talking about,
I think we also need to be careful about implying that anyone with a serious interest in the suttas is a "fundamentalist", that isn't helpful at all. Stephen Batchelor for example has a serious interest in the suttas, but I'm sure nobody would label him in that way.
Orbit
I'm a planet
Yes, I suppose my Buddhish-ness is of the Zen variety.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
But again that very much depends on the school. The Zen view is not the only one.
What I am saying is that in this respect I consider it a full-blown mistake to value scripture over living transmission. Not only outside Zen, but even in religion generally.
Rick O'Shez
Irishman bouncing off walls
The problem with that principle is that there are many different contemporary teachers, and they all say different things. Personally I find it very helpful to use the suttas as a reference point, a way of understanding where different teachers are actually coming from. Some people develop great faith in a particular teacher and follow their approach without the need to compare, that's fine, but we're not all like that.
Again, it depends on the school, but I think with most there is a balance between the two, the suttas / sutras and contemporary teachers. And of course the teachers themselves are often using the scriptures as a teaching tool. It would be far too simplistic to say that one is more important than the other.