Other than belief in god(s)

[ADigitalArtist]

Yes, this all sounds so lovely on paper, but I think you are giving humanity far too much credit.

I think you're giving humanity too little. That people don't have equal empathy thus equal motive for good behavior doesn't change that authoritarian means of keeping the status quo is inferior to self-regulation without prompting, based on mutual love and respect. And, not being an authoritarian myself, there never could be a authority I would obey at their word, because laws do not justify themselves. It takes reason and analysis of consequences to determine right and wrong, and I consider leaving that for merely doing what one is told to be a character flaw.

IOW, I wonder just how many thefts have been prevented because the person intent on stealing something for their own benefit thought further about how sad it would make the victim?

Plenty, in my case. I'm quite sure there are plenty more just like me as societies which happen to be highly atheist (much of Scandinavia, Japan, etc) still have very low crime. Telling me it's not a society's faith which keeps them honest.

I submit for the billions of Christians what prevents them from committing adultery or other sexual sin is the teachings of God, and not how some indirect victim might feel if they found out. Same with stealing, lying, calumny, cheating, and a few others. Now does that mean Christians do not do these things?... of course not. In many, their belief in God and eternal punishments hardly registers on their conscience scale. But to be honest, I consider them in name only and they could be in for a horrible surprise.

That's a shame since, again, I consider morals by revelation to be inferior to morals by empathy and love. And since I don't believe in afterlife punishments or rewards.

focused on your own respect for yourself.

How does focusing on making moral judgements based on their effect on others make me focused on respect for myself? As I said I think 'what's in it for me/reward vs punishment' is far more selfish in its construction and execution.

Since we have so little time on earth I become extremely selective on what I choose to study.

That's pretty much what confirmation bias is, in a nutshell.

I am sincerely impressed that you are one of “good moral behavior” without any religious prompting. I know of very few. In fact, I know of extremely few of “good moral behavior” (that is, God’s way of looking at this.). But again, since you know so little of God or since you think so little of God can be known by anybody --- then how you view life and conduct does not really matter all that much compared to how God judges. In Scripture, for example, it speaks of the harlots and the thieves in paradise long before those who think they are so well behaved --- which can easily be explained

Since I don't believe gods exist, that authoritarianism and truth by revelation are inferior systems of morals and ethics, it doesn't much matter to me how scripture defines good and bad if there isn't a reasoned argument for why X harms and Y helps in a tangible way. If there is then I will certainly hear it. But I'll never be convinced by 'god says so.'

Well I never claimed to know much about Buddhism and its many variations. But if they believe their own actions or mortifications have some kind of cosmic effect on the world, then they must be ascribing to some intellectual force or matter that is beyond human?

I'm not a Buddhist so you'd have to ask them for more information but to my understanding no, their actions have effects only on themselves and their ability to be unified with the cosmos (which includes interpersonal unity.)

 

[Valerian]

I think you're giving humanity too little. That people don't have equal empathy thus equal motive for good behavior doesn't change that authoritarian means of keeping the status quo is inferior to self-regulation without prompting, based on mutual love and respect. And, not being an authoritarian myself, there never could be a authority I would obey at their word, because laws do not justify themselves. It takes reason and analysis of consequences to determine right and wrong, and I consider leaving that for merely doing what one is told to be a character flaw.

Plenty, in my case. I'm quite sure there are plenty more just like me as societies which happen to be highly atheist (much of Scandinavia, Japan, etc) still have very low crime. Telling me it's not a society's faith which keeps them honest.

That's a shame since, again, I consider morals by revelation to be inferior to morals by empathy and love. And since I don't believe in afterlife punishments or rewards.

How does focusing on making moral judgements based on their effect on others make me focused on respect for myself? As I said I think 'what's in it for me/reward vs punishment' is far more selfish in its construction and execution.

That's pretty much what confirmation bias is, in a nutshell.

Since I don't believe gods exist, that authoritarianism and truth by revelation are inferior systems of morals and ethics, it doesn't much matter to me how scripture defines good and bad if there isn't a reasoned argument for why X harms and Y helps in a tangible way. If there is then I will certainly hear it. But I'll never be convinced by 'god says so.'

I'm not a Buddhist so you'd have to ask them for more information but to my understanding no, their actions have effects only on themselves and their ability to be unified with the cosmos (which includes interpersonal unity.)

>>Plenty, in my case. I'm quite sure there are plenty more just like me as societies which happen to be highly atheist (much of Scandinavia, Japan, etc) still have very low crime. Telling me it's not a society's faith which keeps them honest.

I accept your examples of Japan and Scandinavia having some merit. So genetics, tradition and environment will play a role in determining some behaviors. As it will in going the other direction, e.g. more barbaric times in the world, and genocide attacks such as in Rwanda by the masses. Even the acts and mindset of hundreds of thousands or more Muslims. But if you look at a Christian nation in the 20th-21st century I submit you will see a wide scope of behaviors and practices. I believe most people are very selfish and shallow thinking types. And in such a way falsely justify their less than admirable ways. God is not nearly so mysterious or unknown as so many want to pretend. In my opinion.

As to the remainder of your responses I do not want to repeat myself or make little new revelations. I see it this way. You are an atheist who does not believe God exists, and I am a Catholic who is certain God exists and the only God is the Christian God. So given that, our belefs, behavior, attitudes, feelings of guilt, feelings of deserved punishments will most likely differ greatly. And more importantly, our purpose of existence, our motives for doing right or wrong will be far different as well.

Therefore, I imagine as long as I cannot convince you that God exists and that He is communicating His purpose for each one of us alive today, then neither should I expect you and I to agree on too much philosophically speaking. And that’s Ok. I do not doubt you have good intentions, think well of others, and seek to do the best you can. That’s good.

Maybe we will have some related conversations later on.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

>>Plenty, in my case. I'm quite sure there are plenty more just like me as societies which happen to be highly atheist (much of Scandinavia, Japan, etc) still have very low crime. Telling me it's not a society's faith which keeps them honest.

I accept your examples of Japan and Scandinavia having some merit. So genetics, tradition and environment will play a role in determining some behaviors. As it will in going the other direction, e.g. more barbaric times in the world, and genocide attacks such as in Rwanda by the masses. Even the acts and mindset of hundreds of thousands or more Muslims. But if you look at a Christian nation in the 20th-21st century I submit you will see a wide scope of behaviors and practices. I believe most people are very selfish and shallow thinking types. And in such a way falsely justify their less than admirable ways. God is not nearly so mysterious or unknown as so many want to pretend. In my opinion.

As to the remainder of your responses I do not want to repeat myself or make little new revelations. I see it this way. You are an atheist who does not believe God exists, and I am a Catholic who is certain God exists and the only God is the Christian God. So given that, our belefs, behavior, attitudes, feelings of guilt, feelings of deserved punishments will most likely differ greatly. And more importantly, our purpose of existence, our motives for doing right or wrong will be far different as well.

Therefore, I imagine as long as I cannot convince you that God exists and that He is communicating His purpose for each one of us alive today, then neither should I expect you and I to agree on too much philosophically speaking. And that’s Ok. I do not doubt you have good intentions, think well of others, and seek to do the best you can. That’s good.

Maybe we will have some related conversations later on.

Okay, thank you for the exchange. And thank you for the compliment.

 

[jonathan180iq]

No. But only if the atheists are right.

The shoe only fits one foot - the consequences of either party being wrong changes nothing.

Oh, it absolutely does shape a person significantly. But what I meant was, if the atheists are correct all that “shaping” ends up being for nought, eternally --- and in that sense there is no difference.

But if God is real, then everything we do, say or think or everything we do not do or say --- it all is accounted for in some way in the eternal and the consequences will greatly differ.

Note: Just because there are some real scoundrels and hypocrites who are believers does not discredit the godly efforts and sacrifices of so many other believers. Grace is of real value.

If you truly believe that, then faith, or lack thereof, still plays no vital role.

It's all about grace anyway, right? Isn't that supposedly God's great redeeming quality?

 

[1137]

Other than belief in god(s) are there any real differences between theists and atheists?

The entire metaphysical world view is different, especially since many atheists move towards things like empiricism and material reductionism.

 

[Valerian]

The shoe only fits one foot - the consequences of either party being wrong changes nothing.

I do not quite follow what you are saying here?
My point was if we are wrong and there is no Christian God then all our assumptions, efforts and sacrifices are for naught as to what happens once we die. But if there is a Christian God, huge ramifications as to what we did or said or did not do.

If you truly believe that, then faith, or lack thereof, still plays no vital role.

Here again, is this the same point I am making to which you object?

It's all about grace anyway, right? Isn't that supposedly God's great redeeming quality?

Well, this could get lengthy or involved.
Of course, I being a Catholic, we put extreme emphasis on works of charity or lack thereof, over and above faith. Faith may save you, but there will still be much to account for, be purified for, etc. In purgatory. God's greatest attribute is mercy, more than grace. (another Catholic teaching)

 

[pearl]

"I contend that belief in afterlife punishment and reward is actually a poor motivator for change…"

And it is my opinion that is totally untrue. It is, one, a tremendous motivator; and, two, it is a very healthy way to look at life and its meaning. If we steal fron another one should expect punishment for our greed.

It may be a 'tremendous' motivator, but an immature one. Its what a child first learns from parents, reward and punishment. Assuming one does not move on to a higher moral development, its the same reasoning that the reason, as an adult, one does not steal, murder, etc. is because one fears going to jail. We ought to be motivated by reciprocal love for God in a continuing conversion of the heart.

 

[Valerian]

It may be a 'tremendous' motivator, but an immature one. Its what a child first learns from parents, reward and punishment. Assuming one does not move on to a higher moral development, its the same reasoning that the reason, as an adult, one does not steal, murder, etc. is because one fears going to jail. We ought to be motivated by reciprocal love for God in a continuing conversion of the heart.

I, myself, am not impressed with lofty and noble thoughts on this particular subject. Next to no one attains sainthood while on earth. No one eliminates sin and ego and desires only to love God for God’s sake in some beatific mission or however it might be described. You appear to be criticizing Christians for being Christian for selfish motives far more than being critical of the majority who never even bother to get to that level. Those being lukewarm Christians, the unbelievers, and the indifferent.

It is very human like to fight for survival, but now we are speaking of eternal survival. Very human nature to want to be with our loved ones for all eternity. All this is centered around being good, avoiding sin, and attempting to do what God asks of us. Very human nature not to want to go to hell, but rather to be in heaven. None of those thoughts or goals are detestful to God or causes Him any dismay.

So for those seeking the truth about God and life, I choose not to focus on such sublime ideas as “love God for who He is and quit worrying about your own eternal destiny.” That is far too deep or even highbrow in some ways for its own good. For most, the best theology is the most simple and humble, and we see it in the third world farmer more than the the university theologian. “What God has hidden from the learned and clever He has revealed to the merest children.” Matthew 11:25

 

[pearl]

So for those seeking the truth about God and life, I choose not to focus on such sublime ideas as “love God for who He is and quit worrying about your own eternal destiny.”

Who She is, is love.

 

[pearl]

So for those seeking the truth about God and life, I choose not to focus on such sublime ideas as “love God for who He is and quit worrying about your own eternal destiny.”

Catholics are to model their lives after the relational, reciprocal love within the Trinity which is shared with us through Grace.
Its not just a sinful action that determines one's guilt before God, its who one has become that determines ones action/non action.


When conscience is examined in the light of the great commandment of love of God and love of neighbor, our responsibility is seen not only in the light of laws and individual acts, but in terms of relationships: our relationship of love to God, to our fellow human beings, and indeed, our responsibility for the earth.