Pagan influence on Christianity

[Muslim-UK]

This thread is for the Christian Trinitarians.

Elsewhere I wrote,

I think if the Messiah the Jews were expecting was going to be God Himself, then He would have told his chosen people. This whole notion of worshippin g men as Gods comes from Greco-Roman World. They simply hijacked the message of Jesus pbuh, taking the title 'son of God' and replaced their own 'Sun of God' with it. We know this because amongst other things, Emperor Constantine in 321 A.D. decreed “the day of the sun” as a day of rest. He took the Jewish Sabbath and replaced it with Sun 'worship' Day.

We are to believe Palestine was under a hostile invading force that crushed any dissent, and Jesus pbuh was fine with that, telling his followers,

Mark 12:17 "And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." Did Jesus pbuh say that or is it a later insertion?

Either way, sorry but it makes no sense worshipping a man who prayed to God, asked God why he had been forsaken, and told the people he was going to his God and their God. As page after page in this thread has shown, higher Christology is really only found in John and even there you find passages showing Jesus pbuh was far from divine. If you sincerely love the God of Abraham pbuh, then you should follow the Torah as Jesus pbuh commanded. Or keep studying and seek out who the Prophet to come after him was. Recall Jesus pbuh said,

12 “I have yet many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now.13 But when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own authority. But He will speak whatever He hears, and He will tell you things that are to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will receive from Me and will declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is Mine. Therefore I said that He will take what is Mine and will declare it to you. John 16:12-15

 

[Muslim-UK]

I originally was not going to reply to your post because there were so many errors. But as time went by I just couldn't allow you to continue to present these unfactual statements especially if you actually believe them.

You state: "I think if the Messiah the Jews were expecting was going to be God Himself, then He would have told his chosen people."

He did:
John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.” 18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 10:24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are [c]the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 [d]My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are [e]one.”

31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

No sorry this doesn't count. Please show the Jews were told this would happen from their Scriptures. Show us a Prophecy or a clear statement from the God of Abraham pbuh explaining He would become incarnate to save the World from sin.

Worshipping men as gods long predates the Greco-Roman World. Consider ancient Egypt ca 2600 BC.

I'm talking about the Greco-Roman perspective and what they were accustomed to, particularly deifying their leaders.

You state:They simply hijacked the message of Jesus pbuh, taking the title 'son of God' and replaced their own 'Sun of God' with it.

This is simply a false analogy ploy with no historical basis. Just because the phrases sound alike doesn't make the claim true. There was, of course Sun worship (not sun of god worship) which may have begun with Nimrod ca 1050 BC. See also http://www.reviewofreligions.org/2306/ by Fazal Ahmad - UK

Your own link says,

Christianity emerged out of Judaism and therefore all of the early Jewish Christians (Jews who had accepted Jesus(as) as their Messiah) were monotheistic. However, they lived in the context of other civilisations such as the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians and Persians, all of whom had strong cultures of their own. As Christians tried to politically distance themselves from the Jews, and also tried to gain acceptance in Europe, their theology sometimes became merged with local culture to the detriment of Christianity.

A key example of this was the interaction of Christianity in the Roman Empire with traditional Roman beliefs. The Romans had been persecuting Christians and despised the Jews whom they had defeated in Jerusalem around 70 CE. They wanted all races in their empire to pay tribute to the Emperor and the Roman gods and goddesses. Over three centuries, gradually Christians began to associate Jesus(as) with the Roman god Sol Invictus by depicting Jesus(as) as having a solar halo around his head just like Sol Invictus, and by adopting the holy day of their god, December 25th, as the key date for Christianity, erroneously celebrated as the birthday of Jesus(as).

In the early 17th century, Christianity had to debate the place of the sun in the universe with scientists such as Galileo. The Orthodox view of the Church at that time was that man was central and therefore the earth must be at the centre of the universe and the universe must revolve around the earth. Galileo was condemned for his ‘scientific’ beliefs that were seen to be at odds with Orthodox religious beliefs. Modern science has proven the scientific view to be correct.

The long-term impact of Christian use of a Solar calendar is that its festivals are associated more with the seasons when they occur than the events they signify. Also, the legacy of the association with Sol Invictus is that the birthday of Jesus(as) is celebrated on December 25th, which used to be the winter solstice 2000 years ago. It is important to note that Jesus(as) himself would not have recognised some of the innovations that later became part of Christianity, as he was a practising Jew.

The true change of the Jewish Sabbath from the seventh day (Saturday on the current calendar) to the first day (Sunday on the current calendar) was due to the Apostolic and primitive church examples in the Acts of the Apostles and the epistles celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ on that day. The sixth day was a rest from work day celebrating God's finishing of the work of creation. The first day is the celebration of Christ's finishing of His work of the New Creation. Not a material but a Spiritual one of being "in Him" by grace through faith in His penal, substitutionary, representative - death, burial, and resurrection for His sheep.

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2 On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.

You state: Mark 12:17 "And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." Did Jesus pbuh say that or is it a later insertion?

We are to submit to the governing authorities. Unless they force one to disobey God's word. The we obey God rather than man. Even if we receive temporal punishment.

Constantine was a Christian who in 321 A.D. decreed,

"Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades, rest on the venerable day of the sun..." Not Day of the Son.

Why would he associate Christianity with Sun worship Day?

When Jesus, the eternal Son of God, took upon Himself sinless humanity He also took on the form of a servant, giving up His heavenly glory (Philippians 2:5-11). As the God-man, He had to learn obedience (Hebrews 5:8) to His Father as He was tempted by Satan, accused falsely by men, rejected by His people, and eventually crucified. His praying to His heavenly Father was to ask for power (John 11:41-42) and wisdom (Mark 1:35, 6:46). His praying showed His dependence upon His Father in His humanity to carry out His Father's plan of redemption, as evidenced in Christ's high priestly prayer in John 17. His praying demonstrated that He ultimately submitted to His Father's will, which was to go to the cross and pay the penalty (death) for our breaking God's law (Matthew 26:31-46). Of course, He rose bodily from the grave, winning forgiveness and eternal life for those who repent of sin and believe in Him as the Savior.

How can God give up His glory? God stopped being God? Surely he couldn't have been God in the first place. You say he rose from the dead. According to Christianity once God raises you can you ever die again?

There is no problem with God the Son praying or talking to God the Father. As mentioned, they had an eternal relationship before Christ became a man. This relationship is depicted in the Gospels so we can see how the Son of God in His humanity carried out His Father's will, and in doing so, purchased redemption for His children (John 6:38). Christ’s continual submission to His heavenly Father was empowered and kept focused through His prayer life. Christ’s example of prayer is ours to follow.

You have no problem with God praying to himself, ok. If the Son had a eternal relationship with the Father, I have some questions...

Are there 2 separate Gods co existing? or using the father/son terminology did the Father come first?
Would it be better to think god the father as a Mother Goddess or is it a symbolic father son relationship?
Why is the son submissive to the father? Is the Father ever ordered around by the son?

In the Gospel of John, the word is said to be Jesus pbuh who was in the beginning with God, but when we read the genealogy of Jesus pbuh found in Luke and Matthew, we see no hint of a pre-existing Jesus pbuh, why is this?

Jesus Christ was no less God on earth when praying to His Father in heaven. He was depicting how even in sinless humanity it is necessary to have a vital prayer life in order to do His Father’s will. Jesus' praying to the Father was a demonstration of His relationship within the Trinity and an example for us that we must rely on God through prayer for the strength and wisdom we need. Since Christ, as the God-man, needed to have a vibrant prayer life, so should the follower of Christ today.
If Jesus was God, how could He pray to God? Was Jesus praying to Himself?

So Jesus pbuh demonstrated the relationship within the Trinity by praying to His Father's will. How many wills are there within the Trinity?

 

[Muslim-UK]

Finally, you state:Or keep studying and seek out who the Prophet to come after him was. Recall Jesus pbuh said (John 15:12-16 above)

I assume here that you are saying that Muhammad is the "Spirit of truth" Jesus was referring to.

No, that's the Holy Spirit that lives within you Christians to give conviction of faith. Every other faith/religion calls it inner peace.

This same Spirit that "was moving over the surface of the waters" at creation?

No

And while Christians give evidence for the trinity in Isaiah 48:16 “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit.” This Spirit is Muhammad? Or these words of Jesus quoting the prophet Isaiah?: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are oppressed, To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.” Luke 4:18-19 The Spirit of the Lord upon Jesus was Muhammad whom He was to send?

I would have to check the context of these verses, so don't know yet, but the spirit of truth was mentioned by Jesus pbuh as being a Prophet:

John 15:26-27 and 16:5-15, you can see it refers more to a future prophet than to the Holy Spirit.

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

You can see these verses are referring to a person that speaks to the believers, not through them. The Holy Spirit doesn't need to be told what to say, He's supposed to be the third of the Trinity. in John 14:17, Jesus pbuh says that this Spirit of Truth will abide with his followers and be in them; throughout the Gospel of John the Holy Spirit is spoken of as an abiding, inner presence. Again, in 14:26, Jesus pbuh says that the Advocate will “remind you of all that I have said to you.” In these passages, Jesus pbuh is talking about the Holy Spirit who helps his followers understand what he has said. Essentially, this would have been the experience of the beloved disciple, the alleged author of the Gospel of John, who was guided by the presence of the Spirit in remembering and interpreting Jesus’ pbuh words and deeds (which he does spiritually rather than literally). However, in John 16:12-15, Jesus pbuh is talking about a Spirit of Truth who will bring forth new revelations, who will say the “many things” that Jesus does not say because his followers “cannot bear them now.”

This Prophet mentioned by Jesus pbuh is the Prophet talked about in Deuteronomy 18:18

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

 

[shunyadragon]

Baha'i faith included

No, because the Baha'i Faith does not believe in a remotely historical nor literal Genesis, but a more symbolic and mystical representation of early revelation of the Revelation of Adam lost in history, except the Revelation of absolute Monotheism in the midst of polytheistic and pagan influence. The Revelation of Moses had a similar role, Reaffirmation of Monotheism, and the Revelation of God's Law.The Baha'i Faith most definitely does not accept the pagan Tritheism of the Trinity of Christianity

The dominant view among the Church Fathers was a literal Genesis in terms of God's Creation, and remains the dominant view among Christians today.

There is corruption by pagan influence and literalism in Christianity and Islam.

 

[Kenny]

There are distinct pagan influences in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Roman and Greek paganism and polytheism dominate Christianity.

Genesis and part of the rest of the Pentateuch and parts of Psalms are based a edited composite of Babylonian, Canaanite, and Ugarit scripture and myth. and they were basically endorsed as scripture and divinely inspired by all.

I disagree.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

What people call "Christianity" is mostly based on pagan ideas. True Christians believe the teachings of Christ. They are very few and hard to find. Definitely not in the big churches that falsely use the name "Christian".

 

[Unveiled Artist]

All religions have paganism in it unless they are completely made up this year 2017. Paganism just means native religions of the land. All religions have some paganisms because all religions are or have been influenced by the religions/culture of the original land that religion came from.

If there were no Paganism in Bahai, Christianity, Judaism, um, whatever, then what would your religions be founded on? If it's not from traditions (beliefs/practices handed down-which are native to the land/pagan), what is your religion based on?

You guys act as if paganism is a bad word.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

There is corruption by pagan influence and literalism in Christianity and Islam.

Why the hell would Pagan influences be "corruption"?

You people worship Bahaullah. Very pagan.

No, worshiping people is not Pagan.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

No, the origin of idolatry is nature worship. Which remains at the core of Paganism. Speak on what you know, and you'll never look a fool.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Pagans are fools, yes

Trying to decide if that's a personal insult or not...

Archaeological remains of old Slavic Norse shrines have been found were they used to worship their ancestors

That's a link to a very vague Wikipedia page. Slavic Norse? Not a thing, naya. And building a shrine to one's ancestors is not worshiping the ancestors, it is honoring them. Different practices entirely.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Some random on the internet is more intelligent than the authors at wikipedia.

Okay naya, let's analyze your link to "shrine".

First line: "A shrine (Latin: scrinium "case or chest for books or papers"; Old French: escrin "box or case") is a holy or sacred place, which is dedicated to a specific deity, ancestor, hero, martyr, saint, daemon, or similar figure of awe and respect, at which they are venerated or worshipped."

See that mention of deity? Kind of throws shade on your notion of worshiping ancestors and Paganism. Regarding Paganism, we have the mention of hörgr and vé. A hörgr is stacked rocks, akin to an altar, placed in an open area rather than a hof or temple. All mentions of hörgr are in reference to - *gasp!* - worship of the Gods. Not ancestors.

A vé, in a similar manner, is the entire area of worship, the sacred ground upon which the Gods are honored and worshiped.

Also, worshiping ancestors is very pagan:

How Do Pagans Honor Their Ancestors?

That says honor, not worship. As a Pagan, I think I'm a tad more qualified than you when I say we don't really worship our ancestors. We honor them, and the name they have given to us. There is a difference.

Ancestor Worship and other questions • r/pagan

Did you bother to read that thread? It's someone asking a question, and getting a wide range of answers, and a lot of statements that it's not a common thing. One would think that if it was core to Paganism - as you seem to claim - it would be far more common than it is.

Veneration of the dead - Wikipedia

Veneration is not worship; that article hardly touches on Paganism.

http://witchesandpagans.com/pagan-studies-blogs/ancestor-worship-dealing-with-the-dead.html

"Ancestor worship has become a popular topic in the Pagan community, but it is worth noting that it is not universal, or necessarily normative." - the blog (opinions) of Sam Webster.

If you're going to just randomly google a bunch of crap, maybe make sure that it's actually relevant and factual to the point you're trying to make? Just a thought.

 

[NayaVeda]

You are ignoring content by this member. Show Ignored Content

Thank God.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

"If you're going to just randomly google a bunch of crap, maybe make sure that it's actually relevant and factual to the point you're trying to make? Just a thought."


What an arrogant person. Is there an ignore feature here? I don't want to talk to this person ever again.

It's not arrogant to point out that you're talking crap when you tar all Pagans, regardless of tradition or path, with the broadest of brushes and use words in a context you don't understand. To then insist that you know the context of how Pagans practice their traditions better than they do is pretty arrogant itself. If you're going to do this then you have no right to complain when people call you out on it and proceed to tell you why.

You are ignoring content by this member. Show Ignored Content

Thank God.

So you're going to put people on ignore if they challenge your baseless claims and critique your sources, showing that either you didn't read them or you don't understand them. Are you even familiar with what debating involves?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Ancestors are worshiped as deities by pagans:

Ancestors - Norse Mythology for Smart People

Your own link shows your claim is nonsense. Seriously. The first bloody sentence. It even includes a link showing you what the definition of animism is:

"Ancestor veneration is a practice that nearly all animistic peoples, past and present, have shared, and the pre-Christian Norse and other Germanic peoples are certainly no exception."



Animism is a belief in the honouring and veneration of spirits, not deities, and that everything has a spirit. That whole link talks about animist beliefs like land spirits, spirits of ancestors and even elves. It doesn't describe them as being gods or as equal to gods, or as powerful as the gods.

 

[NayaVeda]

The Middle Paleolithic spans the period from 300,000 to 50,000 years ago. Some of the earliest significant evidence of religious practices dates from this period. Intentional burial, particularly with grave goods may be one of the earliest detectable forms of religious practice since, as Philip Lieberman suggests, it may signify a "concern for the dead that transcends daily life."

Though disputed, evidence suggests that the Neanderthals were the first humans to intentionally bury the dead, doing so in shallow graves along with stone tools and animal bones. Exemplary sites include Shanidar in Iraq, Kebara Cave in Israel and Krapina in Croatia. Some scholars, however argue that these bodies may have been disposed of for secular reasons.Cut marks on Neanderthal bones from various sites such as Combe-Grenal and Abri Moula in France may imply that the Neanderthals may have practiced excarnation.

Likewise a number of archeologists propose that Middle Paleolithic societies — such as that of the Neanderthals — may also have practiced the earliest form of totemism or animal worship in addition to their (presumably religious) burial of the dead. Emil Bächler in particular suggests (based on archeological evidence from Middle Paleolithic caves) that a widespread Neanderthal bear-cult existed

So, ancestor worship, yes?

 

[Kenny]

What people call "Christianity" is mostly based on pagan ideas. True Christians believe the teachings of Christ. They are very few and hard to find. Definitely not in the big churches that falsely use the name "Christian".

We are so happy that we have you to let us know what is right.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I am sorry you are offended by articles written by experts. I am sure you are a neo-pagan and not an original pagan.

That doesn't even address anything I said. It just projects an air of false superiority. Again.

Pagans are a diverse group of people.

Strange that you recognise this while tarring us all with the same brush. Do you understand the concept of cognitive dissonance.

Faux-Pagans don't know what they are talking about.

Ah, an outsider deciding who is and is not a real Pagan. I can honestly say I've never seen this before. I suspect because most people aren't so full of themselves as to want to try.

And i am free to ignore anyone i feel like.

Of course you are - nobody said otherwise - just as I'm free to call you out on it.

Neo-Paganism is a new fad these days.

WHAT? Neo-Paganism is new?!!

I posted links that talk about ancestor pagan worship. Most of the pagan deities were humans turned into deities. And they personify nature in the form of their ancestors.

Most, you say? Do you have evidence for this? Because you're linking purely to Heathenry while making claims about entire Pagan traditions.

For more information regarding pagan religions:

Paleolithic religion - Wikipedia

Hunter-Gatherers and the Origins of Religion

Okay, wait a second. I know I shouldn't feed the troll buuuut...

What is your threshold for what's considered 'neo'-Pagan and what's considered just Pagan?

The Middle Paleolithic spans the period from 300,000 to 50,000 years ago. Some of the earliest significant evidence of religious practices dates from this period. Intentional burial, particularly with grave goods may be one of the earliest detectable forms of religious practice since, as Philip Lieberman suggests, it may signify a "concern for the dead that transcends daily life."

Though disputed, evidence suggests that the Neanderthals were the first humans to intentionally bury the dead, doing so in shallow graves along with stone tools and animal bones. Exemplary sites include Shanidar in Iraq, Kebara Cave in Israel and Krapina in Croatia. Some scholars, however argue that these bodies may have been disposed of for secular reasons.Cut marks on Neanderthal bones from various sites such as Combe-Grenal and Abri Moula in France may imply that the Neanderthals may have practiced excarnation.

Likewise a number of archeologists propose that Middle Paleolithic societies — such as that of the Neanderthals — may also have practiced the earliest form of totemism or animal worship in addition to their (presumably religious) burial of the dead. Emil Bächler in particular suggests (based on archeological evidence from Middle Paleolithic caves) that a widespread Neanderthal bear-cult existed

So, ancestor worship, yes?

No... that's called holding funerals for people. What strange, non-Earth planet are you from where holding funerals for someone constitutes worshipping them? In fact funerals are one of the best examples of the distinction between honouring and worshipping that Ragin was trying to point out to you. The funeral honours the deceased by encouraging friends & family to gather to remember them and their life, to talk about them and show honour to their memory and the impact the deceased had on them.

And the presence of grave goods (in addition to the possible bear-cult among Neanderthals) is a plausible indicator of animist beliefs - namely that the objects buried have a spirit form that the spirit of the recently deceased can make use of in the next life. Or it could also indicate that this is what they did in life, so the objects hold significance to them and that's why they're buried.

 

[NayaVeda]

"The funeral honours the deceased by encouraging friends & family to gather to remember them and their life"

This then mutates into ancestor worship by subsequent generations and deification of the ancestor spirits into gods

 

[shunyadragon]

You people worship Bahaullah. Very pagan.

No, the Baha'i Faith does not worship Baha-u-llah. The messenger from God is not an object of worship, nor the 'Source of the message.

The Baha'i writings are specific and consistent, and do not believe in deification of the Messenger of God, nor the incarnation of God, and this includes Jesus and Krishna.

 

[shunyadragon]

We are so happy that we have you to let us know what is right.

Like wise we live with your persistent efforts to 'let us know what is right.'