Pagans, what do you want Christians to know about You?

[ShadowFire]

Recently I decided to reestablish contact with the Christian community by having fellowship with them from time to time. Since the Christians know that I am a full practicing solitary Witch that is Wicca friendly they sometimes ask me all kinds of questions about Paganism in general.

Even though I am not fully Pagan the Christian community identifies me as a Pagan and I want to represent the Pagan community as best as I can to demystify and hopefully end the Hollywood stereotype of what people think about pagans.

So here is your chance, what message do you want me to relay about you and your way of life to the christian community? I started a list below but would love to hear some extra suggestions about your way of life for me to pass on to the Christian community, thanks in advance!

(1) I was impressed that Pagans seems to have the same values that Christians do, they care for and worry about their children, are responsible citizens, and are generally good and decent people to hang around with. Most are very welcoming people and make you feel like you are a part of their extended family.

(2) Most of the Pagans I know have a pretty fair knowledge of the christian faith and have relatives that are Christian as well so it would probably be rude to re-tell the Christian doctrine to them unless they ask you first.

(3) My general observations with pagans during their Sabbaths or Esbats is that they seem to worship their Divine a little bit differently than what Christians do. Instead of seeing their Divine as a Supreme Being that is so far above them, some view their Divine with respect, but more like you are calling a wise elder family member to come to your location during their Sabbath celebrations of them.

*if you can please add to this list of what message you would like for me to relay to the Christian community about your life, your practice and any religious functions you engage in.*

 

[lovesong]

That not all Pagans worship a god and a goddess. We are polytheistic, atheistic, pantheistic, henotheistic, and every other -theistic. Some of us worship one god, some many, some none at all. Some of us respect them as parents, friends, advisors, wise immortals, movers of the earth, and even high divine beings beyond our grasp. Some worship the earth, the spirits, or the ancestors. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is no one "Pagan faith," we are so diverse and our umbrella holds thousands upon thousands of years of history and tradition that no point you could make about our faith and practice could possible incorporate all of us.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Not all pagans are Wiccans, of course. By my calculation, there are 2 billion of us, using the widest definition! That makes Paganism the second largest religion after Christianity. For example, the majority of Chinese and Japanese are practicing pagans. You can also count the Hindus, with a wide definition:
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/are-hindus-pagan-poll.161740/poll/results
In other words, there's nothing odd or unusual about being a Pagan.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

For example, the majority of Chinese

Aren't the majority of Chinese people (in their homeland) atheists?

 

[ShadowFire]

Hi LoveSong I totally agree I have Shamanistic practices mixed with my beliefs so I do not worship a Goddess or God either, but I do see the divinity in all of nature as a whole, it is really hard to relate to Christians how diverse the Pagan religion really is! Since I am very Wicca Friendly I usually generalize the polytheistic nature of most Wicca Groups, to simplify my discussions with the Christian groups but maybe in the future I should mention that pagan groups have a very diverse structure from all the background faiths you mentioned.

 

[ShadowFire]

HI David McCann thanks for your input, I like how you described that Paganism is a large and diverse group that is part of a normal worship practice that has so many wonderful sub groups in it that peacefully practice their Religion and views of their Divine.

 

[Quintessence]

Truly, the biggest thing is to remember that individuals are individuals. Many problems emerge from treating someone a particular way because you believe they fit into some particular category, and the assumptions that emerge from those categorical attributions. Get to know people as the individuals they are. I don't know if it is useful for people, Christian or otherwise, to approach getting to know me "as a Pagan." I am me; get to know me. Related to this is to respect the differences and acknowledge that these differences are real. Intercultural work often looks for common ground as a way to initiate peaceable relations, but this really should not be necessary. Differences are okay, and can be celebrated. Overwriting the narratives of other people is disrespectful, even if well-intentioned.

 

[ShadowFire]

Point well taken Quintessence, it is important to remember not to label a person because of their religious beliefs and to see the person for who they are. I know some really wonderful people and some that are very spiteful from all the religious perspective of the rainbow. I am normally quiet when it comes to religion but since Christians know that I am Wicca friendly they are curious about so many things about Wicca and Paganism in general. They have such limited contact with Pagan groups so I try to fill in the void by trying to make them feel comfortable in asking any questions they have about Paganism in general. I just want to make sure when I am talking to them about Wicca and Paganism in general that I am giving the religion the respect it deserves.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That not all Pagans worship a god and a goddess. We are polytheistic, atheistic, pantheistic, henotheistic, and every other -theistic. Some of us worship one god, some many, some none at all. Some of us respect them as parents, friends, advisors, wise immortals, movers of the earth, and even high divine beings beyond our grasp. Some worship the earth, the spirits, or the ancestors. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is no one "Pagan faith," we are so diverse and our umbrella holds thousands upon thousands of years of history and tradition that no point you could make about our faith and practice could possible incorporate all of us.

Aint that the truth!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@ShadowFire

A label or title, to me, is like a name. It is to me something sacred ans can be given by yourself, from your god(s), culture, family, and/or so forth. So when I talk with my friend, I tell her I am pagan. I tell her that word isnt just any word but defines my relationship with the spirits. I tell her about my ancestors. I tel her about my grandmothers. I just "act pagan" cause thats what language is

As a poet and writing my first novel I learned that characters and people have a varay of beliefs that make them them. So cal me pagan.

What Id like Christians to know that not every pagan is a "lost sheep." We (and I agree with @lovesong) are different.

Id also want christians to know there is a difference between language and identity. If you read my profile, Im a whole bunch of things. That is language.

I agree with @quindesennse (not on a spellcheck phone). As the individual who they are. (My words) Dont put us in a box and get to know us.

Ask me "who" I am. Not what I am.

I am a woman who loves her family, her soul, her life, and life itself.

I want a christian to say "hey, you love your family... i didnt know 'that' is what YOU meant by pagan. I see that in you totally." Rather than defining me from what they believe.

In my career, education, tob, hobbies, everything I do has to do with knowledge, expression, and helping with communication.

If this isnt pagan, so be.

Id like a christian to understand that if nothing else.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Aren't the majority of Chinese people (in their homeland) atheists?

No. Some years ago the government commissioned a university (Shanghai?) to do a survey of religious activity, among other things. Some people fled when they discovered they were being asked about religion (remembering the persecution in the Cultural Revolution) and some were evasive, so it was difficult to get a good result. Nevertheless, the team reported that a definite 60% were regular worshipers, and the actual figure could be as high as 80%.

Remember Albania. The communist regime declared the country religion-free: the last census reported just 2.5% atheists!

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

No. Some years ago the government commissioned a university (Shanghai?) to do a survey of religious activity, among other things. Some people fled when they discovered they were being asked about religion (remembering the persecution in the Cultural Revolution) and some were evasive, so it was difficult to get a good result. Nevertheless, the team reported that a definite 60% were regular worshipers, and the actual figure could be as high as 80%.

Remember Albania. The communist regime declared the country religion-free: the last census reported just 2.5% atheists!

Wow - religiosity is as high as that? Interesting.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Wow - religiosity is as high as that? Interesting.

the reality of China and many other places--I'd even include America--is that the religion practiced by the majority is "folk religion," which is not a particular religion, but a blend of thoughts, practices, emotions from various traditions. For all the effort of the cultural revolution to stamp out religion, China discovered it's very hard to stamp out something that everyone does, has no center (destroy the village temple? okay, we'll make temporary altars...), and no central texts. People in China still honor their ancestors, pray to Buddha, contemplate the writings of Lao Tsu, consult the I Ching...

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

the reality of China and many other places--I'd even include America--is that the religion practiced by the majority is "folk religion," which is not a particular religion, but a blend of thoughts, practices, emotions from various traditions. For all the effort of the cultural revolution to stamp out religion, China discovered it's very hard to stamp out something that everyone does, has no center (destroy the village temple? okay, we'll make temporary altars...), and no central texts. People in China still honor their ancestors, pray to Buddha, contemplate the writings of Lao Tsu, consult the I Ching...

And thus the durability of local Pagan beliefs is demonstrated.

 

[Cassandra]

Recently I decided to reestablish contact with the Christian community by having fellowship with them from time to time. Since the Christians know that I am a full practicing solitary Witch that is Wicca friendly they sometimes ask me all kinds of questions about Paganism in general.

Even though I am not fully Pagan the Christian community identifies me as a Pagan and I want to represent the Pagan community as best as I can to demystify and hopefully end the Hollywood stereotype of what people think about pagans.

So here is your chance, what message do you want me to relay about you and your way of life to the christian community? I started a list below but would love to hear some extra suggestions about your way of life for me to pass on to the Christian community, thanks in advance!

(1) I was impressed that Pagans seems to have the same values that Christians do, they care for and worry about their children, are responsible citizens, and are generally good and decent people to hang around with. Most are very welcoming people and make you feel like you are a part of their extended family.

(2) Most of the Pagans I know have a pretty fair knowledge of the christian faith and have relatives that are Christian as well so it would probably be rude to re-tell the Christian doctrine to them unless they ask you first.

(3) My general observations with pagans during their Sabbaths or Esbats is that they seem to worship their Divine a little bit differently than what Christians do. Instead of seeing their Divine as a Supreme Being that is so far above them, some view their Divine with respect, but more like you are calling a wise elder family member to come to your location during their Sabbath celebrations of them.

*if you can please add to this list of what message you would like for me to relay to the Christian community about your life, your practice and any religious functions you engage in.*

My view:

Sorry but what a bull.

Pagans do not need self-appointed representatives. And Pagans do not need contact with the Christian community either. Nor do they need pastors, herdsmen. leaders etc. I do not care what Christians think about Pagans.

If you want to reestablish contact with the Christian community because you are "not fully Pagan" whatever that means (probably undercover Christian or something) do that privately.

That Pagans have the same values as Christians is a nonsense. Christians have morals, commandments from a book, many of them pretty low on ethics. Sure, ethical Christians have the same values as ethical Pagans, and criminal Pagans have the same values as criminal Christians. But that is no surprise is it? But that has nothing to do with a common ground between religions.

Christian converters always pretend to be of the other religion to get close to the ones they want to convert. That is how they sneak up on their prey. If you are still hung up on the suicide God then do whatever you feel you need to do, but do it private. Lets keep the Christian bull out of the Pagan forum, I am totally not interested in their endless deceit.

 

[Cassandra]

And thus the durability of local Pagan beliefs is demonstrated.

Not really. The Chinese have no problem with private beliefs, but they are very wary about organized religion. The are very smart, they understand that Christianity has always been part of the western colonization system and is used to to create division and conflict among foreign nations. It works like a fifth column. That is how they destroyed one people after another.

 

[VioletVortex]

One of the biggest misconceptions about Pagans held by Christians is that Pagans believe that all of their religion's mythology is literally true.

 

[ShadowFire]

My view:

Sorry but what a bull.

Pagans do not need self-appointed representatives. And Pagans do not need contact with the Christian community either. Nor do they need pastors, herdsmen. leaders etc. I do not care what Christians think about Pagans.

If you want to reestablish contact with the Christian community because you are "not fully Pagan" whatever that means (probably undercover Christian or something) do that privately.

That Pagans have the same values as Christians is a nonsense. Christians have morals, commandments from a book, many of them pretty low on ethics. Sure, ethical Christians have the same values as ethical Pagans, and criminal Pagans have the same values as criminal Christians. But that is no surprise is it? But that has nothing to do with a common ground between religions.

Christian converters always pretend to be of the other religion to get close to the ones they want to convert. That is how they sneak up on their prey. If you are still hung up on the suicide God then do whatever you feel you need to do, but do it private. Lets keep the Christian bull out of the Pagan forum, I am totally not interested in their endless deceit.

Hi Cassandra I am glad you were able to vent your frustrations and paranoia concerning the questions I had on this particular subject and hope you feel better. If it makes you feel any better I label myself as a Christian Witch that is Very Wicca friendly which basically means that the Christians hate my guts, the Pagans hate my guts and the Atheist just think I am absolutely INSANE haha!

My mission in life is -->NOT<-- to convert anyone to any set of ideas or beliefs, I simply want people of religious and non religious nature to co-exist in peace. You have an opportunity Cassandra to reach out to people outside your faith and let them know what you feel about life, religion, and the philosophical reasons of why are we here for in the first place. You also have the right to stay in your little corner and be at peace of living a solitary life if that is what you are destined to do.

My destiny lies in contacting people, getting to know their religion even if it is different than mine and give them the respect of who they are as long as they worship in peace. I am a spiritual seeker, I seek spiritual truths, I am a Physical seeker, I seek the truth in nature by scientific methods. I leave no stone unturned as I am searching for my individual meaning in life and hope as I discover how different people seem to be we really aren't as different as we seem.

I started this thread to give people an opportunity to share the positive side of their religion to the Christian faith because Christians have little to no contact with pagan groups and it really doesn't matter if you Christian, Pagan, or Atheistic in nature, if you cut contact off from people outside your faith you eventually become "Hardened" "Paranoid" "Alienated" from the discipline of being spiritually mature.

I have heard too many silly statements and conclusions from some of the Christian contacts I have had in the past to cause me some concern about their misguided assumptions towards Paganism so I try to relay my observations to them of what I have experienced in the Pagan community that I am a part of. I tell them how safe and welcome I feel in the Pagan Community, How most Pagans I met are just as wonderful as some of the Christians I have as friends. That Pagans are really no different than what a Christian is, other than the view of what the Divine is.

Before I attend a Christian or Pagan religious moment I really can't tell the difference between the group I am with. I have seen people hugging one another asking about their family and truly being happy being in a group setting and celebrating the upcoming religious moment peacefully. This is the message I have for both sides of the religious fence that just because a person is Pagan or Christian, doesn't make them evil, get to know them first and see who they are before you worry about their Religious background, your spiritually maturity will thank you for your effort!

 

[Cassandra]

Hi Cassandra I am glad you were able to vent your frustrations and paranoia concerning the questions I had on this particular subject and hope you feel better. If it makes you feel any better I label myself as a Christian Witch that is Very Wicca friendly which basically means that the Christians hate my guts, the Pagans hate my guts and the Atheist just think I am absolutely INSANE haha!

My mission in life is -->NOT<-- to convert anyone to any set of ideas or beliefs, I simply want people of religious and non religious nature to co-exist in peace. You have an opportunity Cassandra to reach out to people outside your faith and let them know what you feel about life, religion, and the philosophical reasons of why are we here for in the first place. You also have the right to stay in your little corner and be at peace of living a solitary life if that is what you are destined to do.

My destiny lies in contacting people, getting to know their religion even if it is different than mine and give them the respect of who they are as long as they worship in peace. I am a spiritual seeker, I seek spiritual truths, I am a Physical seeker, I seek the truth in nature by scientific methods. I leave no stone unturned as I am searching for my individual meaning in life and hope as I discover how different people seem to be we really aren't as different as we seem.

I started this thread to give people an opportunity to share the positive side of their religion to the Christian faith because Christians have little to no contact with pagan groups and it really doesn't matter if you Christian, Pagan, or Atheistic in nature, if you cut contact off from people outside your faith you eventually become "Hardened" "Paranoid" "Alienated" from the discipline of being spiritually mature.

I have heard too many silly statements and conclusions from some of the Christian contacts I have had in the past to cause me some concern about their misguided assumptions towards Paganism so I try to relay my observations to them of what I have experienced in the Pagan community that I am a part of. I tell them how safe and welcome I feel in the Pagan Community, How most Pagans I met are just as wonderful as some of the Christians I have as friends. That Pagans are really no different than what a Christian is, other than the view of what the Divine is.

Before I attend a Christian or Pagan religious moment I really can't tell the difference between the group I am with. I have seen people hugging one another asking about their family and truly being happy being in a group setting and celebrating the upcoming religious moment peacefully. This is the message I have for both sides of the religious fence that just because a person is Pagan or Christian, doesn't make them evil, get to know them first and see who they are before you worry about their Religious background, your spiritually maturity will thank you for your effort!

What you do is your business, I resent that you want to become a spokesperson for Pagans. I have no problem with Christians on an individual basis when they are nice people. You do need to tell me that many Christians are nice people. They are nice people because that is their Nature, not because they are Christians. Christianity neither elevates nor lowers peoples character, just fills their minds with a brainwash. They can not help it that their ancestors were forced into a religion they now see as their heritage.

But you want to talk to the Christian "community". Christianity is an artificial community strongly led by artificial leaders called pastors on the basis of ideology. This ideology is anti-Pagan by its very Nature. All Abrahamist religions share that trait. Christians did not persecute Pagans because they had the wrong idea, but because Christian ideology itself is the wrong idea.

It is not your average Christian that persecutes Pagans either. It is the ideologically trained and motivated Christian that does that. Christianity only changes people into a flock that follows such leaders. But it is never the healthy common man that is the problem.

The people you want to convince do not need to be convinced, and the people you need to convince can not be convinced because they are brainwashed. The more understanding you will try to create for paganism with the flock, the more anger it will raise with the leaders. That actually scares them a lot more than the witchcraft of Pagans. They do not want to lose control. Christianity is about control of the masses. If they use these fears to scare their flock that is no misunderstanding but the very purpose of keeping their flock together and under their control.

There is not such thing as Christian Pagan. You can be a Christian that practices witchcraft but that does not make you a pagan, and that surely will create strong rejections among Christians who know their Bible (Exodus 22:18 KJV: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live). What are you going to do, rewrite their "holy" book? Brainwash them with your personal interpretation of the book? Convince them their book is wrong?

Why? Pagans do not do that. They do not care what others believe. Stay out of each others hair, when it comes to beliefs makes it far easier to live in respect.

Please do not call yourself a Pagan or think you represent Pagans, you do not. Call yourself what you are, a Christian that ignores the Biblical commandments and practices witchcraft because he sees no harm in it. Besides, I do not practice witchcraft myself, so why should witchcraft be presented as Pagan. Because we do not condemn it? Because we leave people free to practice their own beliefs? Pagans come in all shapes and form. A Christian into witchcraft is not a representative of Pagans, but of Christians into witchcraft.

So go to the Christian community if that is so important to you and show them that Christians into witchcraft aren't all bad because the Bible says they need to be exterminated. But being rejected by Christianity, or picking up practices of some Pagans, do not make you a Pagan

And NO, I do NOT appreciate contact with "the Christian community". It is Christians that want to bring pagans into contact with their community for one reason only, to convert. Why? Because that is heart and soul of their faith. No, not the average Christian, he minds his own business. But certainly Christians on forums. Christians are the only religion that is constantly popping up and starting threads that bring up Christianity. You think we are fools? Your are no Pagan, go to Christian forums and tell them how much you as a Christian like witchcraft. Invite them to your coven to cure them of their bias. The response will be interesting

By the way Wicca is a different forum.

 

[ShadowFire]

What you do is your business, I resent that you want to become a spokesperson for Pagans. I have no problem with Christians on an individual basis when they are nice people. You do need to tell me that many Christians are nice people. They are nice people because that is their Nature, not because they are Christians. Christianity neither elevates nor downgrades peoples character, just fills there minds with a brainwash. They can not help it that their ancestors were forced into a religion they now see as their heritage.

But you want to talk to the Christian "community". Christianity is an artificial community strongly led by artificial leaders called pastors on the basis of ideology. This ideology is anti-Pagan by its very Nature. All Abrahamist religions share that trait. Christians did not persecute Pagans because they had the wrong idea, but because Christian ideology itself is the wrong idea.

It is not your average Christian that persecutes Pagans either. It is the ideologically trained and motivated Christian that does that. Christianity only changes people into a flock that follows such leaders. But it is never the healthy common man that is the problem.

The people you want to convince do not need to be convinced, and the people you need to convince can not be convinced because they are brainwashed. The more understanding you will try to create for paganism with the flock, the more anger it will raise with the leaders. That actually scares them a lot more than the witchcraft of Pagans. They do not want to lose control. Christianity is about control of the masses. If they use these fears to scare their flock that is no misunderstanding but the very purpose of keeping their flock together and under their control.

There is not such thing as Christian Pagan. You can be a Christian that practices witchcraft but that does not make you a pagan, and surely will create strong rejections among Christians who know their Bible (Exodus 22:18 KJV: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live). What are you going to do, rewrite their "holy" book. Brainwash them with your personal interpretation. Convince them their book is wrong?

Why? Pagans do not do that. What do I care what others believe. Stay out of each others hair, when it comes to beliefs makes it far easier to live in respect.

Please do not call yourself a Pagan or think you represent Pagans, you do not. Call yourself what you are, a Christian that ignores the Biblical commandments and practices witchcraft because he sees no harm in it. Besides, I do not practice witchcraft myself, so why should witchcraft be presented as something Pagan. Because we do not condemn it? Because we leave people free to practice their own beliefs? Pagans come in all shapes and form. A Christian into witchcraft is not a representative of Pagans, but of Christians into witchcraft.

So go to the Christian community if that is so important to you and show them that Christians into witchcraft aren't all bad because the Bible says they need to be exterminated. But being rejected by Christianity, or picking up practices of some Pagans, do not make you a Pagan

And NO, I do NOT appreciate contact with "the Christian community". It is Christians that want to bring pagans into contact with their community for one reason only, to convert. Why? Because that is heart and soul of their faith. No, not the average Christian, he minds his own business. But certainly Christians on forums. Christians are the only religion that is constantly popping up and starting threads that bring up Christianity. You think we are fools? Your are no Pagan, go to Christian forums and tell them how much you as a Christian like witchcraft. Invite them to your coven to cure them of their bias. The response will be interesting

By the way Wicca is different forum.

OK thanks I will be happy to relay the message that some pagans don't like contact with Christians. I warned you that some Christians, pagans and atheist hate my guts, haha, they seem to think I am somehow mocking their beliefs by my mere existence.

Why am I such a threat to you? I simply want to talk to people and find out the positive aspects of their religion or secular life they are attempting to live.

Tell you what, if my being a Witch, Wicca friendly or Christian offends you why don't you just call me friend instead and I promise to return the favor back to you, have a blessed day friend!