Pain

[Rival]

...but we can. Unless you're some sort of Inuit living in a place where your only way to keep warm and have clothing is to kill local wildlife and use their fur, you have access to clothing made from plants or synthetic fibers. Fur is an aesthetic choice only.

As I've just said to @ChristineM in another thread, fur is way longer lasting, tougher and more value for money. Those synthetic coats don't last even a decade.

 

[Left Coast]

As I've just said to @ChristineM in another thread, fur is way longer lasting, tougher and more value for money. Those synthetic coats don't last even a decade.

I have literally never worn a piece of fur and have never found that I've needed to in order to keep myself alive (nor have I ever known anyone who did). I suspect the vast majority of people in industrialized nations are similar.

 

[Rival]

I'l have to think on this one @Rival - this is an interesting topic.

At this juncture, I think it is simply worth noting that indigenous/animistic cultures - who see "person" or ethical subjects to apply well beyond merely humans - did not eschew killing non-human persons to satisfy vital needs. They also didn't suffer from the extreme disconnect modern, domesticated humans have with these killings and their necessity. Humans must kill other persons to live, full stop. There is no avoiding this. Contemporary reconstructions of indigenous religion, like that of my own path of Pagan Druidry, often make consideration of this a centerpiece of ritual. It very much honors how normal it is to kill to live instead of transforming it into a taboo. But non-indigenous religions that aren't grounded in nature won't take that angle. Neither will many modern, domesticated humans. It is what it is.

This is a very useful angle to look at it from. It is indeed a complex topic in a sheltered world.

I recall another user bringing up the fact that in a country he used to live in is majority Muslim and they have a festival where they sacrifice goats. The goat meat goes to the poor. There are many who would see this slaughter as unnecessarily harmful, but the reality is that the poor rely upon it.

 

[Rival]

I have literally never worn a piece of fur and have never found that I've needed to in order to keep myself alive (nor have I ever known anyone who did). I suspect the vast majority of people in industrialized nations are similar.

If you want value in a product, a long lived product that you don't need to keep replacing, leather and fur are simply the top of the range. We have fur coats going back nearly a century that are still wearable, and leather shoes from the Middle Ages that are still clearly shoes. None of our products will last anywhere near this long. I need to replace footwear every year and my coats every few years unless they are wool. But wool is not good for English rain.

It's part of consumer culture imo. We no longer feel we need lasting products. I'm not sure plastic and synthetic are any better.

Animal products do not cause nearly as much waste as synthetic ones. Far fewer harmful chemicals. Much less pollution.

 

[ChristineM]

Are you able to take an animal's life on your own and butcher it for food or skin it for its fur?

Yes, well I've slaughtered and prepared chickens in the distant past but chicken fur ;-) doesn't have the same "i can afford mink" ring to it.

I've helped a vet put a cow out of it's pain when it shattered a leg in a mole hole.

 

[Left Coast]

If you want value in a product, a long lived product that you don't need to keep replacing, leather and fur are simply the top of the range. We have fur coats going back nearly a century that are still wearable, and leather shoes from the Middle Ages that are still clearly shoes. None of our products will last anywhere near this long. I need to replace footwear every year and my coats every few years unless they are wool. But wool is not good for English rain.

It's part of consumer culture imo. We no longer feel we need lasting products. I'm not sure plastic and synthetic are any better.

Animal products do not cause nearly as much waste as synthetic ones. Far fewer harmful chemicals. Much less pollution.

I don't know how true any of that really is. I've had my current shoes for multiple years. I've had many othet clothing items for many years. I have a t shirt still from over 15 years ago. It's true that products nowadays are often made more poorly (and are thus cheaper). But I don't think we can jump from that to, "well, the only solution is to wear fur."

 

[ChristineM]

Animal products do not cause nearly as much waste as synthetic ones. Far fewer harmful chemicals. Much less pollution.

If fur farmers got their act together and treated their stock with respect then i feel sure there would be much less opposition to the fur trade

 

[Secret Chief]

We need nutrients we can only get from animal products.

Incorrect. I'm 63, eaten no meat since my early 20s and still run half marathons.Yet you think I've managed to do this whilst lacking nutrients.

Professional sportspeople can be vegan. Weightlifters can be vegan.

 

[Secret Chief]

I've been having a discussion with @ChristineM about wearing fur.

I wonder if some ideologies are seeking too much to avoid pain and suffering. I agree that any kind of farming is generally not pleasant and most people despair of killing animals for food or other reasons, but have ways of mitigating this. Historically we saw that killing as a sacrifice and raised the animal to something holy.

Are were trying to avoid the realities of life by trying to get rid of pain and suffering? Why does it disturb us so, given we've been doing it for so long? Is it that we are now sheltered from the outside world so much when we see it we're horrified?

I'm not heartless, but farming is normal; hunting and eating animals has been normal for all of human history.

Are we stuck in an ideology that makes us too disturbed by reality?

There is no need to eat meat. People may like the taste but that psychological preference has nothing to do with need.

And as for wearing fur. Jesus probably wept, I thought only callous elderly Italians still wore fur. In the modern western world there is absolutely no need or ethical justification for fur farming.

 

[Rival]

I don't know how true any of that really is. I've had my current shoes for multiple years. I've had many othet clothing items for many years. I have a t shirt still from over 15 years ago. It's true that products nowadays are often made more poorly (and are thus cheaper). But I don't think we can jump from that to, "well, the only solution is to wear fur."

Products are certainly inferior. It may be you can simply afford better or don't have such heavy footfalls! I go through shoes like absolutely nothing and jackets are the same. It may have something to do with the differing climates we live in.

I find even higher end clothes are falling to pieces these days, too.

Also had a piece of underwear that lasted 1 day

 

[Secret Chief]

get rid

Huh? You're talking about creating pain and suffering where it would not otherwise exist.

 

[Rival]

Huh? You're talking about creating pain and suffering where it would not otherwise exist.

No, I'm talking about accepting that it exists and we at times will make it happen.

I think it's utopian nonsense to believe that humans will never have to kill anything or cause pain at any time.

Even plants kill animals and digest them.

I fail to see why we cannot accept that 'elimiating suffering and increasing pleasure' is simply undoable and naïve. We should try to be as good as possible and not create excessive pain, sure.

 

[Secret Chief]

They are not in misery though. There are well-run outdoor farms, and many of them.

Where do I start? How long does a lamb live for? How long does a dairy cow live for (compared to natural life expectancy?) and why is this? What happens to male chicks in the egg industry?

 

[Daemon Sophic]

They are not in misery though. There are well-run outdoor farms, and many of them.

Most of our meat is produced in factory farms. Well more than 90% (closer to 99%). The idea of Ol' MacDonald with chickens and cows roaming yards and fields is a long-since dead myth. Sure, they exist, but unless you live on that farm, the vast majority of the meat you have always eaten comes from an industrial farm.

Except eating animals is a biological reality for us. We can't moralise our way out of that fact. Nor should we be making synthetics.

We need nutrients we can only get from animal products. Flesh is also the most nutrient dense food going.

Nope. Legumes provide a full spread of amino acids. Those who preach otherwise are either misled, or trying to mislead.

This link has multiple attached articles, discussing how a vegan and/or whole foods plant-based diet (WFPBD) gives you plenty of protein, all the kinds you need, and healthier for you than meat.
The Protein-Combining Myth | NutritionFacts.org
The site itself (Nutrition Facts . org) is a great overall site for questions about the current state of food research (free from big Ag influence).



Even vitamin B12 is actually not a meat item, it is a soil material (i.e. - it was in the meat we ate, because of feces from the slaughtered intestines spilling onto/into what you ate - that gave us B12). With some modern very sterile butchery techniques, the meat is now deficient in B12. The answer for plant-eaters (and for clean meat eaters) is to take a daily B12 vitamin......or go outside and eat a daily spoonful of topsoil.



As for the OP. As mentioned, we have no need to harvest animals like we did in the past. So why do it? Once you get used to WFPBD, even those tasty-tasty burgers will make you drastically ill, real fast! Plus, and more important than emotions or morality, is that Veganism/WFPBD uses MUCH less land area (clear-cutting forests) and MUCH less water than raising meat. Much better for Global Warming: Eating this way is actually better than switching to an electric car, or getting solar panels for your house.

 

[Rival]

Where do I start? How long does a lamb live for? How long does a dairy cow live for (compared to natural life expectancy?) and why is this? What happens to male chicks in the egg industry?

I've been on farms, friend. They were not horrific. Not all farms are horrific.

Mum has chickens, geese, ducks and other animals. They all live and roam outside unimpeded.

My dad worked on a pig farm where all the pigs lived outside.

Let's not be hasty about this. Factory farming sucks, yeah, but there are alternatives.

 

[Rival]

Most of our meat is produced in factory farms. Well more than 90% (closer to 99%). The idea of Ol' MacDonald with chickens and cows roaming yards and fields is a long-since dead myth.


Nope. Legumes provide a full spread of amino acids. Those who preach otherwise are either misled, or trying to mislead.

This link has multiple attached articles, discussing how a vegan and/or whole foods plant-based diet (WFPBD) gives you plenty of protein, all the kinds you need, and healthier for you than meat.
The Protein-Combining Myth | NutritionFacts.org
The site itself (Nutrition Facts . org) is a great overall site for questions about the current state of food research (free from big Ag influence).



Even vitamin B12 is actually not a meat item, it is a soil material (i.e. - it was in the meat we ate, because of feces from the slaughtered intestines spilling onto/into what you ate - that gave us B12). With some modern very sterile butchery techniques, the meat is now deficient in B12. The answer for plant-eaters (and for clean meat eaters) is to take a daily B12 vitamin......or go outside and eat a daily spoonful of topsoil.



As for the OP. As mentioned, we have no need to harvest animals like we did in the past. So why do it? Once you get used to WFPBD, even those tasty-tasty burgers will make you drastically ill, real fast! Plus, and more important than emotions or morality, is that Veganism/WFPBD uses MUCH less land area (clear-cutting forests) and MUCH less water than raising meat. Much better for Global Warming: Eating this way is actually better than switching to an electric car, or getting solar panels for your house.

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. There are studies on this. Meat is the most nutrient dense food, period.

 

[Secret Chief]

No, I'm talking about accepting that it exists and we at times will make it happen.

Of course it exists. The point is it is in our power to not create it unneccessarily.

I think it's utopian nonsense to believe that humans will never have to kill anything or cause pain at any time.

Obviously.

Even plants kill animals and digest them.

And that has what relevance?

I fail to see why we cannot accept that 'mitigating suffering and increasing pleasure' is simply undoable and naïve.

Undoable and naive? Is it? So next time you're at the dentist you won't be having any anaesthetic then?

 

[Secret Chief]

I've been on farms, friend. They were not horrific. Not all farms are horrific.

Mum has chickens, geese, ducks and other animals. They all live and roam outside unimpeded.

My dad worked on a pig farm where all the pigs lived outside.

Let's not be hasty about this. Factory farming sucks, yeah, but there are alternatives.

Alternatives all have the same end. And super lovely farms still kill lambs etc etc

 

[Left Coast]

Products are certainly inferior. It may be you can simply afford better or don't have such heavy footfalls! I go through shoes like absolutely nothing and jackets are the same. It may have something to do with the differing climates we live in.

Perhaps. I'm willing to bet money I'm taller and heavier than you, though.

I find even higher end clothes are falling to pieces these days, too.

I agree. Products are not made to last the way they were decades ago. But I feel like that's true even if we were to compare, say, a cotton garment made in the 50s to a cotton garment today.

Also had a piece of underwear that lasted 1 day

That feels like perhaps some sort of user error.

 

[Secret Chief]

Meat is the most nutrient dense food, period.

Humans do not need to eat meat. Period.