Pain

[Rival]

Humans do not need to eat meat. Period.

I prefer getting easy to absorb nutrients

 

[Secret Chief]

What if we can't?

But we can.

 

[Secret Chief]

I prefer getting easy to absorb nutrients

Me too.

 

[Secret Chief]

I don't know how true any of that really is. I've had my current shoes for multiple years. I've had many othet clothing items for many years. I have a t shirt still from over 15 years ago. It's true that products nowadays are often made more poorly (and are thus cheaper). But I don't think we can jump from that to, "well, the only solution is to wear fur."

Also, if you wear fur you run the risk of having red paint thrown on you.

 

[ChristineM]

Also, if you wear fur you run the risk of having red paint thrown on you.

Another a down side.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I prefer getting easy to absorb nutrients

But then we can dispense with the cover story of it being a necessity and conclude that it's a convenience. We like it and want it, but it's unnecessary and at the very least debatable whether it thereby causes unnecessary harm.

 

[Koldo]

Vitamin A in its active form is only properly taken from animals.

Haeme iron (more easily absored and therefore useful).

B12.

Omega 3 in its best form is only found in animals.

Vitamin D3. Incredibly beneficial for those living in cold climates with little sun exposure.


We often talk about nutrients without realising that there are many forms of them and sometimes those found in animal sources are much better absorbed and therefore used by the human body.

How often do you think most humans assess their daily nutrition all the way down to the details?
Do you think Mr. Bob is worried about his daily Vitamin C when he eats a big beef during his lunch?

Convenience has lots of bearing on this conversation.

It would be very convenient to own a slave, but you ought to agree that our convenience doesn't take precedence, right?

 

[Rival]

My priorities have changed.

I have told my housemates not to turn the oven off just because the kitchen light is off as I may have food in there.

Well, now I'm waiting another hour for my macaroni cheese.

Wtf is wrong with people?

 

[Rival]

But then we can dispense with the cover story of it being a necessity and conclude that it's a convenience. We like it and want it, but it's unnecessary and at the very least debatable whether it thereby causes unnecessary harm.

It is both. Meat is convenient as it's everywhere and it's necessary (probably evolutionarily because it's convenient). I don't see a conflict. Sure, as some say we can live without it but I'd argue you're nutrient deficient in the name of moral virtue.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I've been having a discussion with @ChristineM about wearing fur.

I wonder if some ideologies are seeking too much to avoid pain and suffering. I agree that any kind of farming is generally not pleasant and most people despair of killing animals for food or other reasons, but have ways of mitigating this. Historically we saw that killing as a sacrifice and raised the animal to something holy.

Are were trying to avoid the realities of life by trying to get rid of pain and suffering? Why does it disturb us so, given we've been doing it for so long? Is it that we are now sheltered from the outside world so much when we see it we're horrified?

I'm not heartless, but farming is normal; hunting and eating animals has been normal for all of human history.

Are we stuck in an ideology that makes us too disturbed by reality?

I think there's a large spectrum of options between "we can eliminate all suffering of non-human animals" and "the suffering of non-human animals is a part of life, so we should just accept it."

It is almost impossible to sustain a comfortable lifestyle using modern technology without contributing to or benefiting from suffering in one way or another, whether through the products one buys or through the effects of said products (e.g., the environmental impact of various products that make our lives easier, or the medical animal testing through which we have antibiotics, vaccines, and many other life-saving medical products). The idea that merely adopting a vegan diet or avoiding fur clothes means one doesn't contribute to suffering strikes me as simplistic and conducive to complacency. It contributes to human suffering when someone buys an EV whose production included minerals sourced from slave mines in Africa. Ditto for buying instant coffee produced through slave labor in a poorer country. These are just two examples.

However, this doesn't mean that we can't reduce suffering, whether for non-human animals or humans. We can use a car when needed, but we don't have to use cruise ships that severely damage marine life. We can use necessary (at least until viable alternatives are developed) animal testing for our medical products, but we don't have to farm and kill animals for fur that is replaceable with synthetic materials. We can cut down some trees for wood, but we don't have to wipe out entire forests and the ecosystems they comprise just to satisfy our demand for more industrial farming.

I see this as a complex subject with many possible options rather than one where we inevitably have to accept all suffering without trying to reduce it—mainly because we can indeed afford to reduce it in many cases.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

For the majority of my young life I lived on a subsistence farm. Where most of our food came from crops we grew and animals we raised. I have dispatched and ate my own farm raised animals. I have also fished during lean times to fill the gaps.
I know, for a fact, that I can survive on a minimally impactful farm for my region.

...and I'd still rather go plant based. The hardest part isn't navigating health (it is trivially easy to have a healthy vegetarian diet), it isn't money (the healthiest vegetarian meals with the most densely nutrients are the cheapest, rice and beans), it's not even whether or not everyone in my house thinks we need meat, we're all in an agreement that it's an unnecessary indulgence.
The hardest part is navigating cultural expectations within my family of who is responsible for whose meals and what they should be. My husband has tied up fat juicy steaks to his mental wellbeing as something we "deserve" for getting through life's difficulties. It's easy, tastes great, and satisfactory.

But for me, it isn't enough to counter the damage I know, for a fact, it does to a cow. Even one brought up on small, ethical farms. It still causes unnecessary pain and suffering for a desire not a need, imo.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It is both. Meat is convenient as it's everywhere and it's necessary (probably evolutionarily because it's convenient). I don't see a conflict. Sure, as some say we can live without it but I'd argue you're nutrient deficient in the name of moral virtue.

The idea that vegetarian diets are nutrient deficient is, at this point, pure propaganda. There is nothing in meat that you can't get from plant sources, including complete proteins, b12, iron, etc. And you get it with far less carcinogens and cholesterol spikers that come with meat, especially red meat.

You *can* be unhealthy on a vegetarian diet by eating an unvaried diet and the same is true of carnivorous diets. You can be healthy on a vegetarian diet by balancing your nutrients and knowing what's out there, same as an omnivorous diet. Though again high meat diets come with far more heart problems than plant diets.

The appeal of vegetarian diets is for people who don't like the taste of meat, have animal protein allergies, or who think eating from animal sources is unnecessary in their life. And for most of us it's the latter.

 

[Rival]

The idea that vegetarian diets are nutrient deficient is, at this point, pure propaganda. There is nothing in meat that you can't get from plant sources, including complete proteins, b12, iron, etc. And you get it with far less carcinogens and cholesterol spikers that come with meat, especially red meat.

You *can* be unhealthy on a vegetarian diet by eating an unvaried diet and the same is true of carnivorous diets. You can be healthy on a vegetarian diet by balancing your nutrients and knowing what's out there, same as an omnivorous diet. Though again high meat diets come with far more heart problems than plant diets.

The appeal of vegetarian diets is for people who don't like the taste of meat, have animal protein allergies, or who think eating from animal sources is unnecessary in their life. And for most of us it's the latter.

According to sources I've read, meat has some nutrients only it has.

According to sources you've read, we don't need meat.

I'm guessing there's a lot of lobbying here, on both sides, and accurate information is hard to come by.

I maintain that what I've read seems correct to me and that's all I can go on; esp. re D3 in cold climates. I'm going to eat meat as I believe it's essential to a healthy diet given articles from peer reviewed literature. It's obviously different for folks who may have read different studies.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I have literally never worn a piece of fur and have never found that I've needed to in order to keep myself alive (nor have I ever known anyone who did). I suspect the vast majority of people in industrialized nations are similar.

This has been the case for me too, although, for the sake of fairness, I will add that I have lived my whole life in warm climates.

 

[Secret Chief]

we can live without it but I'd argue you're nutrient deficient

Given what I've said - vegetarian/vegan 40 years, run half marathons - in what way has my nutrient deficiency impacted me? I can't remember the last time I needed a doctor and I've never spent one night in a hospital. So go on, what has been the impact?

Apparently this person is suffering from a lack of meat in his diet cos, you know, it's clearly needed!

 

[Koldo]

According to sources I've read, meat has some nutrients only it has.

Your very list contains none though.

 

[Rival]

Your very list contains none though.

So you have been led to believe.

 

[Eddi]

Cruella likes to wear fur and she's not very nice I wouldn't want to be anything like her

 

[Debater Slayer]

Given what I've said - vegetarian 40 years, run half marathons - in what way has my nutrient deficiency impacted me? I can't remember the last time I needed doctor and I've never spent one night in a hospital.

About a third of my closer friends are either vegetarian or vegan, and they are all healthy. As far as I know, they have also gotten normal results when they have had blood work done.

Of course, this is just anecdotal, but there is no shortage of examples and studies demonstrating that a vegetarian diet can provide all necessary nutrients and not compromise one's health at all.

 

[Left Coast]

Given what I've said - vegetarian/vegan 40 years, run half marathons - in what way has my nutrient deficiency impacted me? I can't remember the last time I needed a doctor and I've never spent one night in a hospital. So go on, what has been the impact?

In fairness, I hear this kind of reasoning from carnivores as well. We've all known that one person who smoked forever and never got cancer. Individual variability leads to a variety of results.