Palestianian atheist arrested

[Starsoul]

Well, it's different when it comes to an individual's rights being violated, obviously. But irreverence towards historical figures or historical events does not fall under that.

According to your country's or your own perception maybe, because you probably hold your family members in high regard BECAUSE they are your family members, anyone else is outside of that support circle, But Muslims Feel more love and respect for their Prophet and their fellow muslims, and it is beyond the familial ties of hereditary love.

It is a part of our belief to protect the Honor of all divine books and The Prophets, true that by attempting to degrade them verbally or any other way, in our eyes people only disgrace their own image and demean their own worth, our duty is to STOP people from indulging in such self derogatory behavior. What good has ever come out of it anyway?

I suppose thats hard for you to understand, but just because you cant/or won't comprehend that belief of muslims and reject the basis of it, don't you think thats impinging the freedom rights of practice of other's beliefs? How can you stay quiet when someone is dishonoring your mother, when you KNOW she is a good women, whether or not the whole society believes her to be, or just calls that a myth.

Our Prophet isn't just a historical figure, for us He's a very respectable figure, You may not agree, but i will react to any cheap attacks done on his name.

The best way to deal with harsh criticism is to retort with a rebuttal and counter-criticism. If someone says something false, you disprove it, not silence it (nor react with childish violence).

Agreed,I'm not up for burning the whole house down in reaction but the west should attempt to understand that its attempt to trivialize or caricaturize the respect figures of one of the largest belief systems of the world will not be tolerated as an excuse for freedom of speech.

Rebuttal and ignorance is Not any part of our belief, nor do we believe in trashing the respect figures of other beliefs as the 'right way' of getting back at them, on one hand you say 'rebut' on the other you say 'ignore', I can fully ignore someone who's dissing me personally, but not my Prophet.

Beliefs and ideas that are worth holding should be able to weather, withstand and endure through such things. I would question the integrity of something that needs to be protected through forced silence.

Our belief is for the longest time withstanding all the critique, all the shamming and all the mud slinging, Its not the integrity of the belief that is at stake,if that was so it wouldn't be spreading widely throughout the west with the current image it has. It has endured the harshest of opposition since its revelation, so its nothing new if people would oppose it now too, the thing is, it makes 'those' people look bad, not us. It actually helps us, don't ask why

 

[kai]

Agreed,I'm not up for burning the whole house down in reaction but the west should attempt to understand that its attempt to trivialize or caricaturize the respect figures of one of the largest belief systems of the world will not be tolerated as an excuse for freedom of speech.

what do you suggest?

 

[Father Heathen]

According to your country's or your own perception maybe, because you probably hold your family members in high regard BECAUSE they are your family members, anyone else is outside of that support circle, But Muslims Feel more love and respect for their Prophet and their fellow muslims, and it is beyond the familial ties of hereditary love.

Your analogy didn't work because it's an instance of an actual individual's privacy being violated. You can't compare that to people getting their feelings hurt over people criticizing some dead, historical figure.

It is a part of our belief to protect the Honor of all divine books and The Prophets, true that by attempting to degrade them verbally or any other way, in our eyes people only disgrace their own image and demean their own worth, our duty is to STOP people from indulging in such self derogatory behavior. What good has ever come out of it anyway?

How weak is your god that he needs your protection?

I suppose thats hard for you to understand, but just because you cant/or won't comprehend that belief of muslims and reject the basis of it, don't you think thats impinging the freedom rights of practice of other's beliefs? How can you stay quiet when someone is dishonoring your mother, when you KNOW she is a good women, whether or not the whole society believes her to be, or just calls that a myth.

No one said anything about staying quiet (freedom of speech works both ways), and of course I wouldn't like people speaking ill of my mother, but upholding the rights and liberty of everyone is more important than my personal feelings. The better solution would be to counter falsehood with truth.

Our Prophet isn't just a historical figure, for us He's a very respectable figure, You may not agree, but i will react to any cheap attacks done on his name.

No one is asking you to not get mad or to remain silent. Voice your anger and disapproval. The problem is when you try to violate people's rights and freedoms by forcing them to be silent. I find the koran repulsive, yet I would still fight to protect it from being censored or banned. Imagine that.

Agreed,I'm not up for burning the whole house down in reaction but the west should attempt to understand that its attempt to trivialize or caricaturize the respect figures of one of the largest belief systems of the world will not be tolerated as an excuse for freedom of speech.

And I would kill to defend freedom of speech if I had to.

Rebuttal and ignorance is Not any part of our belief, nor do we believe in trashing the respect figures of other beliefs as the 'right way' of getting back at them, on one hand you say 'rebut' on the other you say 'ignore', I can fully ignore someone who's dissing me personally, but not my Prophet.

And that's precisely one of the many things that make your religion a danger to the civilized world.

Our belief is for the longest time withstanding all the critique, all the shamming and all the mud slinging, Its not the integrity of the belief that is at stake,if that was so it wouldn't be spreading widely throughout the west with the current image it has. It has endured the harshest of opposition since its revelation, so its nothing new if people would oppose it now too, the thing is, it makes 'those' people look bad, not us. It actually helps us, don't ask why

If it does actually help, then why would you complain?

 

[Starsoul]

It didn't occur to me to refute that "argument" since it seemed both baseless and silly, but while we're at it Norway is the fourth largest contributor to foreign aid as relative to military spending and despite being a small country with less than 5 million citizens it is the tenth largest overall contributor in the world.

So much for not speaking for the "rights of the deprived and unprivileged poor people of the world". :sarcastic


Oh, and I might also mention that on a personal basis I spend my holidays doing voluntary work rebuilding the school system in Northern Iraq.

I dont mean to disrespect but, honestly
Thank you for your contribution, couldn't have done it without your support. Had i bombed your country first, totally destroyed its infrasturcutre and then later appointed some unobtrusive philanthropists to assuage your wounds, I'd really like to see how your nation would respond to that.

Why does Us and europe think that the rest of the world cant do without their destructive contribution? Talk about 'baseless' and 'silly', when the whole 'wise' world could unanimously bomb nation after nation looking for dead people and invisible weapons of mass destruction, its not you or your ideology who defines whats silly and baseless. You've lost to rights to intellectual or moral authority long ago.
Peace.

 

[Starsoul]

...

And that's precisely one of the many things that make your religion a danger to the civilized world.

Yeah and the stupidity of the EU nations and the US for that matter is making this world a better place. My above post says it all.

Thank you for that statement though, I'll keep that mind.

 

[Starsoul]

Do i even need to say that for those ghostly Wmds and some 3000 people affected by nine eleven in US, about millions of people have died and continue to give their lives for the last 10 yrs in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Is anyone not drunk enough to even notice the kind of revenge one side of the world is taking form those innocent men, women and children who are Not even the slightest responsible for whats happened? To top it all, the civilized people of the developed world insist on the despicable character they impose on others by ridiculing their beliefs with a sense of superiority. great going, just keep it up.

Do the people of such characterless ideology actually think that they shine as better example of persona?

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm not sure what to make of those random non sequiturs.

 

[Starsoul]

I'm not sure what to make of those random non sequiturs.

uhh as if any better was expected of you

 

[Father Heathen]

uhh as if any better was expected of you

Daww. You're adorable.

 

[Starsoul]

Daww. You're adorable.

actually i meant you do not have the capability to comprehend reality

 

[Looncall]

Our belief is for the longest time withstanding all the critique, all the shamming and all the mud slinging, Its not the integrity of the belief that is at stake,if that was so it wouldn't be spreading widely throughout the west with the current image it has. It has endured the harshest of opposition since its revelation

Please note that all this could very well be the case while islam could at the same time be utterly false. All you are saying is that islam is effective at getting people to believe it.

If there is clear evidence that islam is true, why do you folk not produce this evidence when islam is criticized? That, not violent protest, would be the honest way to proceed.

The fact that muslims revere their book and prophet has no standing outside of islam. Muslim taboos do not apply to non-muslims. One might just as well demand respect for the delusions of the insane.

 

[Starsoul]

The fact that muslims revere their book and prophet has no standing outside of islam. Muslim taboos do not apply to non-muslims. One might just as well demand respect for the delusions of the insane.

lol THAT and the fact that people having strong views like yours give all the hoots they got to bother talking about it and ridiculing it on a regular basis as if they had no better thing to do, speaks volumes of who's sanity is at stake

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Comparing a nine year old of today's society with Ancient Arabia is down right illogical. Especially considering that the average life span was half of today. A person from that time period would already be independent enough to live alone let alone decide on marriage prospects. This thought that morality is limited to a designated time period is not only mine, but also shared with Anthropologists who understand that it is imperative to remove any cultural bias when examining ancient cultures.

It is nonsensical to apply the standard definition of rape in the modern world to ancient Arabia.

So... you don't disagree with the claim that Muhammad had sex with his nine-year-old wife. While you apparently don't consider this to be rape, can you acknowledge that someone else, as an honest opinion, might think that it was?

That's the real issue in deciding whether the blogger's writings might be libel. It's not a question of whether you disagree with him; it's a matter of whether his position is reasonable.

Numerous persons have been banned from entering lots of western countries because of their hate or racist speech and others are jailed for the same reasons, for holocaust denial and for blasphemy. For example, if someone even tried to justify Hezbullah or Hamas position in the US or Canada, he might very well be jailed...so? How is this consistent with "freedom of speech"?

In Canada, hate speech laws generally deal with effect of the speech. Just like other places, speech is protected and actions are regulated, but speech falls under regulation when it knowingly causes action.

I've never heard of anyone here being barred from entry or prosecuted simply for justifying Hezbollah or Hamas. I have heard of this happening in cases where people raise funds for these groups.

Well, I doubt so, at least I might get problems, not necessary legal ones. I have a brother who is preparing his PhD in Canada and he traveled to the US a couple of times before for intern training. He told me that the one should stay away from these topics because any support can be problematic. I don't know if he meant legally problematic or not. But if I traveled there, I'd rather follow his advice. And if Shiekh Al Qaradawi (may Allah preserve him) is banned for his views regarding hamas operations, then this confirms my assumption.

Fun fact: did you know that one drunk driving conviction can be enough for the Canadian Border Service to forbid a person from entering the country? I know Americans who aren't allowed to travel to Canada because they were caught driving drunk 20 years ago.

It doesn't take much to be banned from entering here. The general approach is that a visitor visa is a privilege, not a right, so no rights are being violated if a visa is denied. I have a feeling that in many (most?) of the cases you describe, the person isn't barred so much for advocating an offensive point of view, but for suspicion (even slight suspicion) that the person may be involved with an illegal group.

Oppressive violent society?!

I would say that if a society locks up someone for expressing his honest opinion and then debates whether to execute him, then this is evidence that the society is oppressive and violent.

It is a part of our belief to protect the Honor of all divine books and The Prophets, true that by attempting to degrade them verbally or any other way, in our eyes people only disgrace their own image and demean their own worth, our duty is to STOP people from indulging in such self derogatory behavior. What good has ever come out of it anyway?

If your religion makes it a duty to thwart freedom of speech, then I consider your religion a threat to me personally and to the things I hold sacred.

I'm just glad that most Muslims don't act the way you claim they're obligated to act.

I suppose thats hard for you to understand, but just because you cant/or won't comprehend that belief of muslims and reject the basis of it, don't you think thats impinging the freedom rights of practice of other's beliefs? How can you stay quiet when someone is dishonoring your mother, when you KNOW she is a good women, whether or not the whole society believes her to be, or just calls that a myth.

Nobody's asking you to stay quiet. Voice your opinion! If you're angry, tell anyone and everyone why you're angry. You have free speech, too.

What I'm asking (demanding, actually) you to do is that you do not try to silence that other person by violence or coercive laws.

 

[Looncall]

lol THAT and the fact that people having strong views like yours give all the hoots they got to bother talking about it and ridiculing it on a regular basis as if they had no better thing to do, speaks volumes of who's sanity is at stake

The fact that (some) muslims think that they are justified in extending their taboos to non-muslims, together with their penchant for violence, makes it almost a duty to convince them otherwise. Since, many of them are resistant to reasoned discourse, not much is available for this but ridicule.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I dont mean to disrespect but, honestly
Thank you for your contribution, couldn't have done it without your support.

Well, if anything I would think the claim you made that "It is of utmost wonder if they'd [Norwegians] ever speak for the rights of the deprived and unprivileged poor people of the world, their sense of God keeps them occupied with devicing newer ways to insult only" has been utterly demolished.

Feel like withdrawing that now?

Had i bombed your country first, totally destroyed its infrasturcutre and then later appointed some unobtrusive philanthropists to assuage your wounds, I'd really like to see how your nation would respond to that.

As far as I know Norway hasn't bombed anyone.

Why does Us and europe think that the rest of the world cant do without their destructive contribution? Talk about 'baseless' and 'silly', when the whole 'wise' world could unanimously bomb nation after nation looking for dead people and invisible weapons of mass destruction,

Most people in the US and Europe think that the invasion of Iraq was a mistake, just so you know.

its not you or your ideology who defines whats silly and baseless. You've lost to rights to intellectual or moral authority long ago.

And who is to decide that?

You?

The people who execute homosexuals and imprison dissenting voices?

 

[Autodidact]

It is a part of our belief to protect the Honor of all divine books and The Prophets, true that by attempting to degrade them verbally or any other way, in our eyes people only disgrace their own image and demean their own worth, our duty is to STOP people from indulging in such self derogatory behavior. What good has ever come out of it anyway?

What I'm taking away is that because you are Muslim, you cannot tolerate other people's freedom of speech in certain areas. And if you ever wonder why non-Muslims oppose the spread of Islam, this may give you some idea.

 

[Autodidact]

I dont mean to disrespect but, honestly
Thank you for your contribution, couldn't have done it without your support. Had i bombed your country first, totally destroyed its infrasturcutre and then later appointed some unobtrusive philanthropists to assuage your wounds, I'd really like to see how your nation would respond to that.

Why does Us and europe think that the rest of the world cant do without their destructive contribution? Talk about 'baseless' and 'silly', when the whole 'wise' world could unanimously bomb nation after nation looking for dead people and invisible weapons of mass destruction, its not you or your ideology who defines whats silly and baseless. You've lost to rights to intellectual or moral authority long ago.
Peace.

Start a thread if you want to discuss this interesting topic, which has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Unless you're trying to justify Muslim suppression of speech as being somehow caused by the war in Afghanistan? Or is this just the typical Muslim "I know you are, but what am I" argument?

 

[Autodidact]

Yeah and the stupidity of the EU nations and the US for that matter is making this world a better place. My above post says it all.

Thank you for that statement though, I'll keep that mind.

And that causes Muslims to oppress their fellow citizens because...? Everything Muslims do is actually caused by non-Muslims?

 

[Autodidact]

Do i even need to say that for those ghostly Wmds and some 3000 people affected by nine eleven in US, about millions of people have died and continue to give their lives for the last 10 yrs in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Is anyone not drunk enough to even notice the kind of revenge one side of the world is taking form those innocent men, women and children who are Not even the slightest responsible for whats happened? To top it all, the civilized people of the developed world insist on the despicable character they impose on others by ridiculing their beliefs with a sense of superiority. great going, just keep it up.

Do the people of such characterless ideology actually think that they shine as better example of persona?

It sounds like you're really interested in this subject, and it's an important one. You may want to start a thread, as you're cluttering up this one with irrelevant posts. Thank you.

 

[Autodidact]

As far as I know Norway hasn't bombed anyone.

Not that it has any relevance to this thread, but they are in Afghanistan.

Most people in the US and Europe think that the invasion of Iraq was a mistake, just so you know.

Well in all fairness, not that is has anything to do with this thread, they still did it, and thousands of innocent Iraqis are still dead, so I doubt this is much comfort to the people of Iraq. It's not like they were invaded by Brazil.