If the universe is literally everything, what is beyond?
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Panentheism: What is more than the universe?
- Thread starter The Sum of Awe
- Start date
Skwim
Veteran Member
How could there be anything beyond everything?
Awareness of the universe.
Tumah
Veteran Member
Then I guess you have to say, that the universe is not literally everything, but that everything that is the universe, is Divine.
Exactly.
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
The multiverse.
The universe is everything in this universe. The multiverse is more than this universe.
Sha'irullah
رسول الآلهة
Consciousness. Consciousness is more than the universe and I though it would be a simplistic answer
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Big-C Consciousness. The Multiverse/Omniverse.
God.
That is, the universe is everything in our existence.
But there is more beyond that.
And beyond that, still, is God.
"The universe" doesn't necessarily refer to everything. It can refer strictly to all matter/energy (and spirit if you're not strictly materialistic) within the confines of our specific cosmos. I think in order to clarify your question, you're going to have to ask a specific panentheist why they take the position that they do.
I would speculate that panentheists might take the position that the universe refers strictly to the matter/energy aspect of the universe. Though they believe that gods are immanent within this matter/energy, they also accept there is a transcendent aspect beyond the matter/energy. The one-god is similarly beyond the universe as it is understood to be transcending it.
I would speculate that panentheists might take the position that the universe refers strictly to the matter/energy aspect of the universe. Though they believe that gods are immanent within this matter/energy, they also accept there is a transcendent aspect beyond the matter/energy. The one-god is similarly beyond the universe as it is understood to be transcending it.
What is north of the North Pole? You can't have more than everything. We can't think in those infinite terms.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
There is existence, and then there is non-existence.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Except that consciousness exists within, and is dependent on, the universe.
You can't run software without hardware.
Who knows. Maybe there are degrees or at least distinct stances of "universe", and it simply turns out that some are more generally perceptible than others.
I've wondered about the distinction sometimes. I usually go with "pantheist" as a descriptor for part of my theology because it emphasizes that my conception of the gods is entirely immanent. I see "panENtheism" as implying that there are gods that are not immanent (or transcendent somehow), and that is not something I believe in. From the perspective of others, though, I imagine I can easily come across as a panentheist, because distinctions - as Sum's topic illuminates - largely hinge on one's ontological perspective.
Denny Crane!
Member
Ohhhh very nice metaphor sir/madam, very nice. I have a happier day for reading this.
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Something I wanted to point out here is that the question is really the same as this one:
If all apples are literally green, are there any red apples?
The logical answer is "no". Simply because the "if" is setting up a premise that "all apples are green and no red apples exist", so the question must be answered in "no".
But then, the problem is really the condition and premise of the question. We both would agree that not all apples are green, so the question is wrong from start. And I disagree with "the universe is literally everything."
If I would have to answer your question as we would in logic class, the answer is "no." There's nothing more than everything, but I think the definition that the universe is everything to be wrong.
So the question I have back is, did you want people just to agree to your logical equation or did you want opinions and inputs beyond your question?
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Why? How does that follow? It derives from purely mechanical proccesses.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
For some people, there is a difference between "little-c" consciousness and "big-C" Consciousness.
What it's derived from isn't really relevant. Consciousess is the relation between what is aware ("self" or "a consciousness") and what it is aware of. Self is aware of the universe, hence by default it is not the universe it is aware of.
I have yet to see why the word is then synonymous with totality.