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Papal Infallibility and the Crusades

theosis

Member
A question for Catholics: If the Pope is infallible, were the papal bulls calling for the crusades not mistakes?

How about the Cathar crusade started by Innocent III which claimed the lives of tens of thousands of local Christian heretics which included many women and children, was that not a mistake?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
First thing to note is that proclamations of war or things dealing with specific actions are not the prerogative of infallibility. So anything a Pope, bishop, or priest says that deals with the taking of action of this or that can contain error if not flat out be wrong.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
As a former Catholic, I can tell you that papal infallibility does not mean he cannot make mistakes. It means that when he speaks (or writes) "ex cathedra", "from the chair" (of St. Peter), the proclamation is deemed infallible, because it is guided by God. And we know the bible is replete with wars ordered by God (not being snarky, being serious). That would be the justification for the Crusades.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
A question for Catholics: If the Pope is infallible, were the papal bulls calling for the crusades not mistakes?

How about the Cathar crusade started by Innocent III which claimed the lives of tens of thousands of local Christian heretics which included many women and children, was that not a mistake?

Dear Theosis,

Thank you for your question.

We do believe in papal infallibility however it is has a very limited sphere both in scope and application.

Firstly, not everything a pope says is considered infallible. He is not an oracle, prophet or messiah-figure. It is only when he speaks ex cathedra (from the Chair of St. Peter) and intimates expressly and clearly that he is solemnly defining a matter of dogma, that he has "infallibility".

Secondly, the pope can only speak infallibly in two areas: faith and morals. He has no legislative or worldly authority, in terms of his spiritual role as Supreme Pontiff, which means that any actions or statements of a pope outside these two areas are not binding on the consciences of Catholics; nor are any of his statements even within the category of faith and morals unless he explicitly speaks ex cathedra.

Pope Urban II's call for a Crusade to the Holy Land in 1095 from Clermont, does not therefore constitute an infallible or binding statement. It is not a matter of faith or morals but rather a worldly call for a war against another world power.

The same goes for the Albigensian Crusade.

It should also be noted that the Church as a whole, especially the episcopate (bishops), has an equal collective infallibility to match the pope's singular infallibility that is expressed in two ways through:

The ordinary magisterium: the general, unified teaching of the world's bishops

The extraordinary magisterium: through a church council.

Generally, Catholic theologians accept only two statements as having been definitely infallibly declared by a pope: the dogma of the Immaculate Conception defined by Pope Pius IX on December 8, 1854 & the dogma of the Assumption of Mary defined by Pope Pius XII on November 1, 1950.

Infallible-like or even infallible statements may have been made before 1854 however it is generally agreed not to be prudent to retrospectively search for infallible statements from the past since the dogma of papal infallibility had not been fully developed in the early middle ages. Popes therefore would not have had the full awareness that statements they were making in terms of faith and morals could have dogmatic effect. Therefore some scholars do not believe that any past statements meet the criteria laid down by Vatican I.

Such papal infallibility is not the norm, anyway, it is rather an extraordinary exercise of the magisterium when the pope speaks ex cathedra such that we should not be surprised that there may be such few examples of it.
 
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Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
The Crusades was a response to Muslim aggression, gone terribly wrong. This is what the Pope Innocent III said about the soldiers that did this:

"These "soldiers of Christ" who should have turned their swords against the infidel have steeped them in Christian blood, sparing neither religion, nor age, nor sex . . . They stripped the altars of silver, violated the sanctuaries, robbed icons and crosses and relics . . . The Latins have given example only of perversity and works of darkness. No wonder the Greeks call them dogs!"

{cited in Carroll, ibid., p. 158; from Mann, Popes of the Middle Ages, vol. 12, pp. 266-267}

They also attacked other Christians and horrible things was done on both sides. Most all these acts are morally indefensible.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
As a former Catholic, I can tell you that papal infallibility does not mean he cannot make mistakes. It means that when he speaks (or writes) "ex cathedra", "from the chair" (of St. Peter), the proclamation is deemed infallible, because it is guided by God. And we know the bible is replete with wars ordered by God (not being snarky, being serious). That would be the justification for the Crusades.

I would add that it should not be confused with progressive revelation. Infallibility teaches nothing new and it's not intended too. It protects what already exists as the deposit of faith.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Good point, and I believe infallibility is rarely invoked, but wasn't the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception issued ex cathedra as infallible?
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Good point, and I believe infallibility is rarely invoked, but wasn't the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception issued ex cathedra as infallible?

Yes, it was as I mentioned in my last post. The way we understand it is that something that was implicit before in the understanding of the deposit of faith becomes explicit with the definition of the dogma. Mary's immaculate conception was considered to be implicit before. A feast dedicated to Mary as "all pure Mother" can be corroborated as far back as the 5th century AD. In the New Testament we have her self-identification as "blessed for all generations" in the Magnifact. By the 7th century her conception was celebrated widely as a feast day in the East.

Martin Luther, the 16th century Protestant reformer, even voiced agreement with the doctrine of the immaculate conception - over 300 years before its official definition ex cathedra by Pope Pius IX.



"...It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin..."

- Martin Luther's Sermon "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527



So it was most definitely a teaching that goes back much further than 1854, even if it only become explicit as a dogma from then on via the infallible papal statement.

The deposit of faith is like a fathomless, bottomless abyss from which age after age the faithful can never fully exhaust. We can keep hauling up more water of understanding from the same well.


From the Catholicism: Adult Formation Program book:



Divine revelation, because it is supernatural and of God, cannot ever be completely grasped and understood by man, who is finite and limited. Yet the Church, in order to better understand, explain, and present the truths of divine revelation, works to clarify and focus the endless riches contained in that revelation. This process, far from being a corruption of revelation, is at the service of that revelation, for the Church is the servant of the Word of God.

 
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Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, it was as I mentioned in my last post. The way we understand it is that something that was implicit before in the understanding of the deposit of faith becomes explicit with the definition of the dogma. Mary's immaculate conception was considered to be implicit before.

Ah! Got it! :)
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
A question for Catholics: If the Pope is infallible, were the papal bulls calling for the crusades not mistakes?

How about the Cathar crusade started by Innocent III which claimed the lives of tens of thousands of local Christian heretics which included many women and children, was that not a mistake?

I think perhaps that you have some misconceptions about papal infallibility. Therefore I would recommend these two links, the first of which is a video and the second of which is an article:

Scott Hahn explains Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers

Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers
 
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