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Pastor alarmed after Trump-loving congregants deride Jesus' teachings as 'weak'

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Slave was forced to work for his owner and the owner gave the slave palace to live and food. No meaningful difference to a government that makes people work for it and allows person to have something for to buy place to live and food.
Forced to work, no freedom, no choice or decisions in what you do, amd even the Bible says it's ok to beat them severely because they are the master's property. No one is getting you you have to work but your boss, if you're unfortunate enough to have one, gets to tell you what to do and when to show up and leave, however. Your boss even gets to tell you how to dress, and it's usually in dorky clothes.
Jesus said to render to Ceasar what belongs to him. You are not a slave and apparently have no idea how it worked. A palace? Most of them have wished.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Forced to work, no freedom, no choice or decisions in what you do, amd even the Bible says it's ok to beat them severely because they are the master's property. No one is getting you you have to work but your boss, if you're unfortunate enough to have one, gets to tell you what to do and when to show up and leave, however. Your boss even gets to tell you how to dress, and it's usually in dorky clothes.
Bible doesn't say it is ok to beat slaves.

In the land of taxation, I am forced to work, because I can for example live in a house, without paying taxes. And if I don't obey government, they can beat me and put me in a jail.
Jesus said to render to Ceasar what belongs to him.
That is not the same as saying taxation is ok.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Then almost nothing would get done.
I believe all necessary and useful things would be done. Why do you think we have private companies that don't need to be forced by government?
Not me, but any of the guys who wants the bucks you saved on taxes might kill you for them if just a local posse of unpaid volunteers exists to help you, assuming they felt like volunteering and weren't in on the crime.
Good, I was worried only about you.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...The government wants to clean up industrial sites that leak chemicals into a river where you don't live, will you donate? Your local government needs money to improve street lights in a poor neighborhood where you don't live, will you donate for them, or only for what benefits your neighborhood?
When the problem is in the morality of people, it can't be fixed by government. It could be fixed if people would learn to live as Jesus taught.

And I think best solution for pollution is that people just don't buy stuff that is produced in a way that is harmful. No need for government in that to suck money and power out of people.
Look how many citizens believe disinformation about climate change, yet you expect only the well informed to pay to reduce carbon emissions?
I think the climate hysteria is an evil lie to exploit poor people, to make them pay and buy more. All the solutions government gives for the fake problem are for the benefit of the rich rulers of the world, not for environment or common people.

If they would really care about environment, the solution would not be to pay and give more power to them. Current carbon level is not a real problem, it is just an easy excuse to make people buy more cars and pay more.
Really? It's not technology? It's not more advances in medicine so more can survive serious illness instead of just dying off? It's not more pollution that needs to be cleaned up? It's not more population that puts more demand on infrastructure? It's not the commercial demand for more products that causes waste and byproducts? Just blame politicans?
All advancements seems to have caused only more problems, polluted nature, caused more diseases.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
When the problem is in the morality of people, it can't be fixed by government.
Then is people are immoral they will create an immoral government, as we see with Trump supporters. He's corrupt and his followers don't care. Most of them are evnagelical Christians, so obviously religion isn't an advanatge here.
It could be fixed if people would learn to live as Jesus taught.
Do you think you are one of these people? If so, explain how you behave that is how others should behave. Do you think Jesus taught to reject the work of experts, like scientists as you do? I accept climate change and evolution because experts in science have a high standard for ethics and honest reporting of results. Am I right or wrong according to your view of things?
And I think best solution for pollution is that people just don't buy stuff that is produced in a way that is harmful. No need for government in that to suck money and power out of people.
Really? What products have you not bought that cause pollution? Looks like you have a computer, what about the pollution that product causes pollution? The plastics and mining/processing of metals cause pollutants, so explain yourself. And I guess you don't drive? How do you get around, a horse? Bus? Walk? Bicycle?
I think the climate hysteria is an evil lie to exploit poor people, to make them pay and buy more. All the solutions government gives for the fake problem are for the benefit of the rich rulers of the world, not for environment or common people.
The hysteria? Are you talking about the people who are suffering in extreme heat? Those drowning in floods? Those whose houses are being torn apart in storms? Those crying over the loss of friends and family in Maui?

Or are you citing a conspiracy theory that educated people recognize is not true? Does Jesus teach you to believe in false claims made by conspiracy theorists?
If they would really care about environment, the solution would not be to pay and give more power to them. Current carbon level is not a real problem, it is just an easy excuse to make people buy more cars and pay more.
What expert are you citing that says carbon isn't a problem?

An how does it make sense to buy more cars? If you had five cars you are still only driving one. Or do you mean you oppose people buying newer cars because they pollute less, and it's this that hurts the poor? If that is your thinking notice no one has banned old, cheap cars. No one is being forced to buy a new car. New cars are being designed to meet emission standards set by the government to reduce pollutants, yet you have a problem with this? The reason government is being a good steward for the planet is because good people are electing these folks for government. You seem to have a bad attitude against government and ignore the good it does.
All advancements seems to have caused only more problems, polluted nature, caused more diseases.
You offer no examples yet again, and leave it to us to try to read your mind.

What is true is that global economics has been driven by products that are more advanced. Cell phones is something most everyone has. Back in 1990, they didn't exist. Same with personal computers. Same with TVs. Same with smart watches, ipods, appliances, air conditioners, etc. Life has improved, and most need to have these products to live today. How many people have phones that plug into a wall these days? So of course the rapid development of products has meant more production and industry, and this demand has meant more pollution before governments could impose regulations. Like anything else there is a compromise of pollution and the production of products and price points. Governments all over the world try keeping up with the pollustion and waste created by industry. Want to talk about evil? You seem to recognize a problem, but reject what experts say as if you are informed well enough to make sound judgments. Thus far your posts reveal a mix of conclusions, but most are idealistic, thus unrealistic, and would create disaster. You clearly have not thought through these issues all the way through, and via evidence. You reject evolution, so there is a huge clue.

If you want to be taken seriously, get science right. Respect the work of experts. Acknowledge your ignorance and poor judgment. Work towards correcting your thinking.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Bible doesn't say it is ok to beat slaves.
Sure it does. As long as they don't die within a couple of days, you don't even get punished:

Exodus 21:20-21
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

In the land of taxation, I am forced to work, because I can for example live in a house, without paying taxes. And if I don't obey government, they can beat me and put me in a jail.

That is not the same as saying taxation is ok.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member

Not surprising considering that the teachings and examples of Christ are antithetical to conservative ideology. If he were to return today, the right would reject him for being "woke" and "socialist".
Using third hand distortions quotes from Russell Moore, who the article identifies as "an outspoken critic of many evangelicals' embrace of Trump", on NPR which is quite a hater of Trump and his supporters is the proof? That's ridiculous.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Using third hand distortions quotes from Russell Moore, who the article identifies as "an outspoken critic of many evangelicals' embrace of Trump", on NPR which is quite a hater of Trump and his supporters is the proof? That's ridiculous.

What's ridiculous is pretending that Jesus' teachings and examples aren't demonstratively antithetical to conservative ideology, which makes the criticism of evangelicals who embrace Trump clearly valid. What's also ridiculous is dismissing it as "distortion" simply because it exposes truths you don't find favorable. If Jesus came today, and people didn't know that it was Jesus, the right would undoubtedly call him a "woke socialist hippy".
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
a hater of Trump
I wouldn't trust anybody that doesn't "hate" Trump and his crime spree. It's a reliable litmus test of values for those who know what he is, and of intelligence in those who don't.
Bible doesn't say it is ok to beat slaves.
The Bible instructs slavers on the acceptable limits for beating slaves. You can beat them as much as you like without punishment if it doesn't kill them within a day or two. Are you proud to be defending such a religion?
I believe all necessary and useful things would be done.
Doesn't matter that you believe that. We know that that is wrong. No country without an effective system of taxation can provide its citizens with good roads, public schools, police and fire departments, produce inspection, enforced environmental protections, a military better than the colonials could muster, and the like. There are countries like that. You wouldn't like living in them as much as you do a Western social democracy. I'll bet that if you moved to Chad or Cameroon, the taxes would be quite low. Of course, with little infrastructure, you'd be living a primitive life with frequent power failures if you have power. If you want better, then your neighbors INSIST you help pay the cost. It's not an option if you choose to walk the streets and enjoy the benefit of the taxes others pay. Like I said, for such people there are a few options: emigrate, go to prison for tax evasion, or shed this mortal coil - but enjoying Sunday in Central Park won't be one of them.
Why do you think we have private companies that don't need to be forced by government?
We have them because the people who own them are profiting from them. That's their agenda, not the public's well-being.
If I don't work, I don't eat. So, to live, I am forced to work. And greedy government sees that as a good opportunity to steal part of it from me.
And if you want to live in a modern, liberal, secular, democratic state and partake of its amenities, you'll need to work as well if you don't already have money, and even then, you'll pay taxes.
I care of other people, that is why I am against them being held as slaves with mandatory taxation.
You are living in a dream. I worked for decades and was taxed every year. I was far from a slave. We traveled the world in those years. I bought nice cars and houses, and filled them with art. We went to restaurants every night for many years.

And the people living the life you call slavery - subsistence wages with little savings or credit - aren't there because of taxes. They're people who are unmotivated to work, or spend recklessly, or who bring little to the marketplace but their backs and the ability to follow simple instructions like at a cash register.
When the problem is in the morality of people, it can't be fixed by government. It could be fixed if people would learn to live as Jesus taught.
We can do better than that. The morality of many people in America is the result of their Christian heritage as we're seeing with the theocratic rescinding of reproductive rights, the assault on LGBTQ+, and the assault on same-sex marriage and contraception. Humanists consider all of that immoral.
I think best solution for pollution is that people just don't buy stuff that is produced in a way that is harmful.
You're wrong. Many people are motivated only by self-interest and know almost nothing about the provenance of the goods they buy and don't care.
I think the climate hysteria is an evil lie to exploit poor people, to make them pay and buy more.
The lie is the one you have believed - that this isn't a crisis. The hysteria comes when running from your burning home or finding it blown away or flooded.

And how do you think that climate "hysteria" causes poorer people to buy or spend?

My wife and I went solar in 2011 with ten panels and a solar water heater. Our power has been free since, and we only consume 1/4th as much propane as before, since it is only used for the range and outdoor grill now - not hot water for sinks, showers, and appliances that clean clothes and dishes with hot water. It paid for itself in six years.
All the solutions government gives for the fake problem are for the benefit of the rich rulers of the world, not for environment or common people.
You've been listening to conservative indoctrination media, which aims to beat back the side of government that doesn't serve the wealthy. These people love government, but not when it helps YOU. They see it as a mechanism to transfer wealth from the middle class to the wealthy. To do that, you pay the taxes, not them, and they are spent on their defense contracts or bailouts, not on you. Military, police and prisons serve them, so those get funded publicly - by YOU, not them. But Medicare and Social Security? Disability and unemployment insurance? They're all targets of the people you trust.
All advancements seems to have caused only more problems, polluted nature, caused more diseases.
This is an Abrahamic trope. The evidence is that the world has gotten better throughout my lifetime, but the church, like the right, trades in fear and nihilism. Unfortunately, not fear of climate change or of authoritarian regimes, which will likely make life worse for a time, and we can expect the conservatives to worsen both as the humanists object and resist.

Also, look for the church to bully target demographics and constrict reproductive and marriage rights. Humanists will mitigate these problems to the extent that they can overcome the right and the church. How nice if you would help.
Why do you think forced socialism doesn't fail?
Because we have eyes to see. The happiest countries on earth are the liberal, secular, social democracies
 
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Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What's ridiculous is pretending that Jesus' teachings and examples aren't demonstratively antithetical to conservative ideology, which makes the criticism of evangelicals who embrace Trump clearly valid. What's also ridiculous is dismissing it as "distortion" simply because it exposes truths you don't find favorable. If Jesus came today, and people didn't know that it was Jesus, the right would undoubtedly call him a "woke socialist hippy".
What would he say about you?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Are you saying that Jesus hates Trump or that you wouldn't trust Jesus?
Like anybody else, if Jesus didn't reject Trump, then I wouldn't trust his moral judgment.

You seem to admire Jesus more than I do and see him as a moral exemplar, a gold standard of sorts. I find Christian morality flawed. Being called Christlike is not the praise for me that it is for many. For example, loving enemies is not a virtue. It's actually foolish in my estimation. They're enemies! They mean you harm. Steer clear of them.
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
If I don't work, I don't eat. So, to live, I am forced to work. And greedy government sees that as a good opportunity to steal part of it from me.
You are not "forced". And your mortgage or rent "steal" more from you than a government. Your car payment and insurance take more. You choose these things on your own volition. You are, however, lead by external machinations. But you choose them as well.


BTW, nothing is free.
 
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