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Pastor alarmed after Trump-loving congregants deride Jesus' teachings as 'weak'

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't see any evidence for that Trump worship money.
You pretty much disqualify your judgment and objectivity with that comment. The question isn't whether Trump worships money, but why you can't see that.
I think socialists dismiss the words of Jesus as much and probably are the greediest people on earth, because they think other people should give them everything for nothing.
Then you have no idea who it is that is promoting a socialistic component to liberal democracies. It's people like Bernie Sanders and OAC - well-to-do people that will end up paying more in taxes than they receive in public benefits over a lifetime. They're altruists. Here you painted a caricature of people who receive more than they pay in taxes in the image of Reagan's welfare mother. Those people are relatively powerless and don't make the policies that benefit them, which includes red states now with their hands out for FEMA checks just like California is and Hawaii will be shortly. Is that what you meant by people wanting everything for nothing?
Many things "Democrats" support are against love your neighbor
Youve got it backward. Socialism *IS* love your neighbor.
And in my opinion there are many Republicans that live by what Jesus taught and I don't think there are many "Democrats" who do the same.
It's the humanists that live by the Golden Rule. And Jesus isn't an adequate role model. He was more interested in getting people into heaven than making their lives better, and gave a lot of bad advice:
  • "Take therefore no thought for tomorrow: for tomorrow shall take thought of the things for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."
  • "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall][be] they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
  • "love your enemies"
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I think socialists dismiss the words of Jesus as much and probably are the greediest people on earth, because they think other people should give them everything for nothing. However, I don't think greediness or selfishness goes by party lines. And in my opinion there are many Republicans that live by what Jesus taught and I don't think there are many "Democrats" who do the same. Many things "Democrats" support are against love your neighbor and this:

the laborer is worthy of his hire.
Luke 10:7
Nah, you can't say they live by what Jesus taught if they vote against what Jesus taught.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Bob calls Steve a flag burner
Kenny calls Bill a homophobe
Mary calls Charlie a transphobe
Karen calls Joe a bigot

Are all used in a derogatory manner?
They can be but can also be used neutrally as descriptions. Does Steve burn flags? If yes, then he's a flag burner. Is that a negative judgment? Often, but need not be.
Speaking of derogatory manner... Do these qualify?

Non critical thinking christian
Soulless atheist
Uneducated believer
Hell bound sinner
Same answer. When I say that somebody isn't a critical thinker, it's not a moral judgment.
"Burning the flag could be seen a noble patriotic" Define patriotic.
Some people feel that criticizing the president is as unpatriotic as criticizing the country by burning a flag. "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt
I wore that flag on my right sleeve for 21 years.
Career military? I spent three years in the US Army and don't remember a flag on my uniform. Maybe you were Coast Guard or Peace Corp.
Evidently it means more to me than it does others.
I have a negative visceral response to seeing that flag. Look at who wraps themselves in it - the worst people. I see flags all around Trump. I see flag lapel pins mostly on repulsive politicians. You see a Trump rally and MAGA are dripping in flags. They were everywhere during the insurrection.

"When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Career military? I spent three years in the US Army and don't remember a flag on my uniform. Maybe you were Coast Guard or Peace Corp.
It is possible that yours did not have one. At one point that does not seem to have been the law. But as of 2005 all military uniforms require the US flag:


Police uniforms often have flags too. They tend to fly in the opposite direction indicating offense by one branch and defense by the other.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is possible that yours did not have one. At one point that does not seem to have been the law. But as of 2005 all military uniforms require the US flag:


Police uniforms often have flags too. They tend to fly in the opposite direction indicating offense by one branch and defense by the other.

These were the dress greens in the 70's. We were also issued fatigues, which were also green then. What I recall were rank insignias, brass (lapels; mine Signal Corp), and ribbons or ribbons with medals, but not a flag.

1691943638815.png


This is me near the end of basic training (1972) in my dress greens for the picture. We hadn't been issued the pants yet, and none of us were wearing any for these pictures. The flag is in the background, but I don't think it was on the uniform.


1691943579863.png
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
These were the dress greens in the 70's. We were also issued fatigues, which were also green then. What I recall were rank insignias, brass (lapels; mine Signal Corp), and ribbons or ribbons with metals, but not a flag.

View attachment 80641

This is me near the end of basic training (1972) in my dress greens for the picture. We hadn't been issued the pants yet, and none of us were wearing any for these pictures. The flag is in the background, but I don't think it was on the uniform.


View attachment 80640
I am not denying that at all. The law cited in the link has only been since 2005. Who knows when they first began adding flags. I remember ROTC friends from your era, a little bit later actually, and I do not recall any flag patches on their uniforms. For the military it was likely a more recent addition. I have no idea when police officers started to wear flags. I do not even know if they are required now. A Googling we will go.

EDIT: This article helps a bit on the US military. It seems that the flag was first added during WWII, but at first only paratroopers since they did not have large units around them it was a quick and easy way to ID.

Eventually more and more units added them and that intensified in 2003 and became law in 2005:


Now to see if I can find anything on the police.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Flag burning?
Again maybe that’s just an American thing but I could care less if someone burns their national flag.
It’s just a flag. And indeed flag burning has long been associated with symbolic protests of one’s government. It is a known protest move in multiple countries, usually done in disgust of awful acts committed by said government. So I don’t really put it in the same category, truth be told :shrug:

Maybe it’s more of an American thing?
Some Americans have turned the flag into a sacred cow, lots of us haven't. And it's not used negatively here, but really just depends on the crowd like being a draft dodger. To some Americans that is a mark of shame and the antithesis of patriotic while to other's it's a badge of honor and a value that is patriotic.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I have a negative visceral response to seeing that flag.
I've noticed the same thing happening in me. And that's because, yeah, it's usually not the best America has to offer who are flying it. It's actually often among the worst this place has to offer. Nationalists, xenophobes and bigots and it's used in ways we'd expect to see in Nazi Germany such as the national anthem before a game of baseball for kids in the community and having us pledge our allegiance every single day in school to something that represents lies and promises never made good to a sizeable chunk of the population. And it's never been people escaping dictatorships saying "god bless America," it's typically people claiming America preaching about American Exceptionalism and high on an injection of American Dream. They wear the flag and are so deluded and stupid they believe freedom means no rules.
 

Whateverist

Active Member
Horrifying but hardly shocking given what we've seen over the last several years. Some of the least Christian people I've ever met have loudly proclaimed they were that. That is as obvious as the nose on my face even to a non Christian like myself.

I have always identified as progressive but as I get older I also strongly identify as "conservative". I'm for conserving the rule of law, democracy and all the freedoms guaranteed in the Bill of Rights along with the incumbent responsibilities. But would never endorse "America First" or, what it really means, "America Only". That sort of tribalism is holding us back, unlike religion intelligently practiced - whenever you can find it.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
"Take therefore no thought for tomorrow: for tomorrow shall take thought of the things for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."
He's saying don't worry about tomorrow, which actually isn't bad advice because people do tend to spend a lot of time worrying about the what-ifs that may happen tomorrow. And of course many of those worries don't actually happen. The evil bit is over doing it, but tomorrow shall take thought of the things for itself is basic anxiety and worry management.
I'd also say many atheists do better than the Golden Rule basing morality on empathy rather than what "I" want.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Some Americans have turned the flag into a sacred cow, lots of us haven't. And it's not used negatively here, but really just depends on the crowd like being a draft dodger. To some Americans that is a mark of shame and the antithesis of patriotic while to other's it's a badge of honor and a value that is patriotic.
Oh I see.
Out of curiosity, do you think that came about due to 9/11?
I do vaguely remember seeing a lot of commentary saying as such, but again not American so idk.
Though I guess socialists are still analysing the affect that event has had on western culture in general. So maybe that was a bit lazy of me to jump to that.

I mean I know a few folks like that here. But I don’t know if they necessarily would care all too much if someone burnt the flag. Maybe if it’s during a protest they don’t support, I suppose. We have those elements here too. Not trying to suggest otherwise
But maybe we’re just too drunk and would naturally assume someone accidentally spilled beer on it and set it alight for a laugh lol
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Oh I see.
Out of curiosity, do you think that came about due to 9/11?
I do vaguely remember seeing a lot of commentary saying as such, but again not American so idk.
Though I guess socialists are still analysing the affect that event has had on western culture in general. So maybe that was a bit lazy of me to jump to that.

I mean I know a few folks like that here. But I don’t know if they necessarily would care all too much if someone burnt the flag. Maybe if it’s during a protest they don’t support, I suppose. We have those elements here too. Not trying to suggest otherwise
But maybe we’re just too drunk and would naturally assume someone accidentally spilled beer on it and set it alight for a laugh lol
Certain things ramped up during 9/11, but there have long been things like this. Texas v Johnson (flag burning) was passed by the Supreme Court in '89 with flag desecration being a hot topic issue in political expression and art long before that. The draft dodgers are from the era of the Vietnam War. Even the Red Scare before that.
I think much of it revolves around for America having a Constitution that was radically liberal for the time and still today uncomfortably liberal for many conservatives, and it has this while having a population that has always had more conservatives than liberals.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Can you cite examples of socialists who "think other people should give them everything for nothing"?

Can you cite examples of Reupblicans who live by Jesus' teachings?
Everyone who supports the idea of mandatory taxation essentially thinks others should give them money for nothing. And that is against "love your neighbor". Do you think socialists don't support the idea of mandatory taxation?

But, perhaps it is true that there is also no Republicans who actually lives by the teachings of Jesus.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...Bernie Sanders and OAC - well-to-do people that will end up paying more in taxes than they receive in public benefits over a lifetime. They're altruists. ..
I don't see any good reason to believe that. They look more like opportunist that exploit poor people for their own benefit.
Youve got it backward. Socialism *IS* love your neighbor.
Socialism is legalized theft. No one who loves his neighbor can accept theft, which mandatory taxation is.
It's the humanists that live by the Golden Rule. And Jesus isn't an adequate role model. He was more interested in getting people into heaven than making their lives better, and gave a lot of bad advice:
  • "Take therefore no thought for tomorrow: for tomorrow shall take thought of the things for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."
  • "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall][be] they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
  • "love your enemies"
By what I see, humanists are more like hedonists who do good, if they benefit it in someway.

I think the advice "no thought for tomorrow" is often wrongly understood, because the point is:
...which of you by worrying can add an hour to his life?
Luke 12:25
It would be nice to know, what do you get by worrying?

Do you think world would not be better, if people would love their enemies?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Everyone who supports the idea of mandatory taxation essentially thinks others should give them money for nothing.
I support the idea of mandatory taxation and I want nothing for free. I want to chip in to build the roads and schools, and to fund the fire department, and I want you to do so as well if you earn above a certain threshold. If I earn more than you, I'll pay more than you. Gladly.
I don't see any good reason to believe that. They look more like opportunist that exploit poor people for their own benefit.
Sanders and AOC are altruists. So am I, and I stand with them. They are the champions of the poor, as am I. They get nothing from them, as is the case with me as well. This is basic Golden Rule stuff.
By what I see, humanists are more like hedonists who do good, if they benefit it in someway.
We all fit that description. You do good to get to heaven. I do good for the reward my conscience gives me, and to avoid the punishment it gives me when I don't.
I think the advice "no thought for tomorrow" is often wrongly understood, because the point is:
...which of you by worrying can add an hour to his life?
Luke 12:25
It would be nice to know, what do you get by worrying?
Thinking about tomorrow isn't worrying. It's planning. I know an American woman living here in Mexico who gave no thought to her future. She underreported her earnings and so gets very little in Social Security - $1000/mo. She has no savings, and her credit is exhausted. She's been hammered by both inflation and the weaking of the dollar relative to the peso. That $1000 USD was about 20,000 pesos last year, but more like 16,000 now. NOW she can start worrying.
Do you think world would not be better, if people would love their enemies?
No. Love means to protect and to share resources. I don't love enemies. I avoid them. My point was that Jesus' moral code and advice isn't right for me. It violates my sense of right and wrong.

Speaking of which, it's interesting reading this after reading your opinions on socialism and taxation. What is paying taxes so that we might all be safe (military, police, food inspection) and prosperous (infrastructure and markets, public education) and that the poor and sick, and unlucky have enough to live if not loving one's neighbor?

But not enemies. The MAGA that want to "own the libs" and drink their tears (remember "fk your feelings" in 2017 after the election?) - they're enemies, and they get bupkis from me. And I shed nary a tear when this demographic refused vaccines and did most of the dying full of bleach and deworming medicine.
 

rocala

Well-Known Member
Not surprising considering that the teachings and examples of Christ are antithetical to conservative ideology. If he were to return today, the right would reject him for being "woke" and "socialist".

It seems a mistake to describe Trump & MAGAs
as "conservative". The cult is something similar,
but different, eg, **** the Constitution.
This seems to be a new take on an old phenomenon. Many people in Germany were in a similar position when they joined the Nazi party.
 
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