Pastor alarmed after Trump-loving congregants deride Jesus' teachings as 'weak'

[Revoltingest]

This seems to be a new take on an old phenomenon. Many people in Germany were in a similar position when they joined the Nazi party.

People seem to be loyal to the group they join
more than to ideals that first inspired them to join.

 

[Father Heathen]

Socialism is legalized theft. No one who loves his neighbor can accept theft, which mandatory taxation is.

Render unto Caesar - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[metis]

I think socialists dismiss the words of Jesus as much and probably are the greediest people on earth, because they think other people should give them everything for nothing.

Nonsense, and even some evangelicals now are admitting that they believe Jesus' teachings are too "woke".

Evangelicals are now rejecting 'liberal' teachings of Jesus

All too often many insert their own opinions into Jesus' mouth, so as to make "Jesus" in their own image. Sharing, which it be personal or part of law, is not anti-Christian-- it's very much Christian if one actually believes in Jesus and not just some things about him.

 

[metis]

Do you think socialists don't support the idea of mandatory taxation?

So, you are totally against taxation? Tell us, how do you propose we build roads, pay for defense, etc? Do you know why the founding fathers eventually rejected the Article of Confederation and passed that Constitution?

"Those who do not learn from history...".

 

[metis]

Sorry, I don't see any evidence for that Trump worship money.

I hope you realize that I was using a cliche. However, if you can't see that Trump is both materialistic and hedonistic and often brags about his "conquests" of the latter and how wealthy he is that deals with the former, then you ain't listening to him or paying attention to what he actually does.

Simply put, it is logically impossible to believe in Trump and Jesus because they are at polar ends with what they have said and how they have acted. Thus, the question is which will you follow, and only you can answer that?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Everyone who supports the idea of mandatory taxation essentially thinks others
should give them money for nothing. And that is against "love your neighbor". Do you think socialists don't support the idea of mandatory taxation?

But, perhaps it is true that there is also no Republicans who actually lives by the teachings of Jesus.

While they themselves are also paying taxes? Sorry, doesn't make sense. Also, my neighbour benefits from everyone paying those taxes, as do I. Your entire point doesn't seem to make much sense.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Everyone who supports the idea of mandatory taxation essentially thinks others should give them money for nothing. And that is against "love your neighbor". Do you think socialists don't support the idea of mandatory taxation?

But, perhaps it is true that there is also no Republicans who actually lives by the teachings of Jesus.

No, even the Bible disagrees with you on that. Taxation covers needed services. Tell me that you do not drive on roads. Tell me that you do not benefit from everyone having a free education. Tell me that you have no use for the police or for the fired department.

You use countless government services every day. Those that refuse to pay for the services that they use must sometimes be forced to pay.

Where does Jesus even hint that he was against the concept of taxation?

 

[fantome profane]

Everyone who supports the idea of mandatory taxation essentially thinks others should give them money for nothing. And that is against "love your neighbor". Do you think socialists don't support the idea of mandatory taxation?

But, perhaps it is true that there is also no Republicans who actually lives by the teachings of Jesus.

The problem with this is you are starting with a general concept that you think can be related to the question in someway, while ignoring other very specific direct answers to the question.

The question in this case being its it moral to require people to pay taxes. Your argument is because you should love your neighbour it is wrong to require things of them, it is wrong to require them to pay taxes. But this is a non-sequitur. You can love someone, and require them to do things, things they might not want to do, like pay taxes, obey laws.

But even more specifically there are multiple places were the Bible requires people to give a portion of their wealth away. Not suggesting it, or encouraging it, but requiring it. (Deuteronomy 14:22). And of course everyone know when Jesus was asked about taxes he answer in the affirmative, Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars (Matthew 22:21). No indication that tax is theft.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Another metaphor for that is the Klingons

Klingons killed their gods.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

His sayings are filled with Hebrew scriptural allusions, but he shows very little sign of the Greek/Roman Hellenistic culture that had been hugely influential in the eastern Mediterranean for 300 years by his time. That had to be intentional on his part.

His birthday has magic stars and there have been synagogues with Greek zodiacs in the decorations.

 

[Yerda]

Everyone who supports the idea of mandatory taxation essentially thinks others should give them money for nothing. And that is against "love your neighbor". Do you think socialists don't support the idea of mandatory taxation?

That's the wrong way round. Taxes pay for the society we want to live in. Avoiding tax is taking without giving. There's no free lunch, as we're often told.

The dominant form of capitalism is rentier exploitation whereby the owners draw wealth from the ownership of resources. Whereas, I recieve payment for the labour that I sell and I pay my taxes in order to live in a functioning society. I'm only asking for other to do the same in proportion to the benefit they reap from the society that our labour has built and maintained. I don't believe anything should or can be free.

I share this desire with the overwhelming majority of capitalists, as far as I can tell.

 

[1213]

...You do good to get to heaven....

No, I don't think I, or anyone else, get to heaven by doing good. Eternal life is promised only for righteous in the Bible and it is a gift for them.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Thinking about tomorrow isn't worrying. It's planning

And Jesus was speaking of worrying, not about planning.

What is paying taxes so that we might all be safe (military, police, food inspection) and prosperous (infrastructure and markets, public education) and that the poor and sick, and unlucky have enough to live if not loving one's neighbor?

Fear is the greatest ally for the rulers, with it they can make people to do and believe anything.

But not enemies. The MAGA that want to "own the libs" and drink their tears (remember "fk your feelings" in 2017 after the election?) - they're enemies, and they get bupkis from me. And I shed nary a tear when this demographic refused vaccines and did most of the dying full of bleach and deworming medicine.

 

[1213]

Render unto Caesar - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Giving to caesar what is caesar's is not exactly the same as mandatory taxation. I think no one should have anything that is ceasar's at all, then they would not have to give it back.

 

[1213]

Nonsense, and even some evangelicals now are admitting that they believe Jesus' teachings are too "woke".

That is funny. Difficult to believe they know what Jesus says in the Bible.

 

[1213]

So, you are totally against taxation?

Mandatory taxation is theft and in my opinion wrong.

Tell us, how do you propose we build roads, pay for defense, etc?

If people want roads, they can fund them freely for example by donating money for the project, like in many ground-funding projects. I think all good things can be arranged with free system. Government and mandatory taxation is only requirement for big government and politicians who exploit people by claiming "you should pay at least 50% of what you earn so that we can have roads and healthcare". Truth is, much less would be needed for the essential things, if the money would go only for the commonly accepted things.

 

[1213]

No, even the Bible disagrees with you on that. Taxation covers needed services. Tell me that you do not drive on roads. Tell me that you do not benefit from everyone having a free education. Tell me that you have no use for the police or for the fired department.
You use countless government services every day. Those that refuse to pay for the services that they use must sometimes be forced to pay.

None of them are free, someone always pays them. All good and useful services can be arranged with voluntary payments, instead of mandatory taxation. If the are done by voluntary means, then people have better control over how the money is actually used.

Where does Jesus even hint that he was against the concept of taxation?

Isn't forcing people to pay against the "love your neighbor as yourself? I think Jesus was pro freedom and against tyranny.

 

[1213]

The dominant form of capitalism is rentier exploitation whereby the owners draw wealth from the ownership of resources. Whereas, I recieve payment for the labour that I sell and I pay my taxes in order to live in a functioning society.

I think in free capitalism producer gets money for what he produces and buyer gets some product or service for the the money. I think it is fair trade, if both are free to decide. And I think it is better than socialism, because in socialism there is no fair trade.

 

[metis]

Mandatory taxation is theft and in my opinion wrong.

If people want roads, they can fund them freely for example by donating money for the project, like in many ground-funding projects. I think all good things can be arranged with free system. Government and mandatory taxation is only requirement for big government and politicians who exploit people by claiming "you should pay at least 50% of what you earn so that we can have roads and healthcare". Truth is, much less would be needed for the essential things, if the money would go only for the commonly accepted things.

Jesus in no way denied the importance of taxation, and this shows up clearly in his Parable of the Widow's Mite, whereas he praised her for going beyond her obligation to tithe. If he was against taxation, that, and some other things he said, would read very differently.

What you propose is not only unworkable-- it's also selfish. Who's going to pay for police, fire, the poor, defense, roads? bridges? education?

So, I guess go take some of your "hard-earned money" and make a shrine for yourself with it because that's clearly where you heart really is.

 

[metis]

And I think it is better than socialism, because in socialism there is no fair trade.

Tell that to a Scandinavian, whereas the Nordic Model was at least partially based on Lutheranism, and they'll likely laugh. There's cradle-to-grave protection, which I would suggest very strongly supports what Jesus taught in regard to compassion for others, especially the downtrodden. It seems that between Jesus's teachings and money, your heart is mainly with the latter.

And with those that are downtrodden, you seemingly have no sympathy as we well know that charity alone can't fix the problems. We tried that and it failed miserably.

"Those who do not learn from history, ...".

fini

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

No, I don't think I, or anyone else, get to heaven by doing good. Eternal life is promised only for righteous in the Bible and it is a gift for them.

You're contradicting yourself. "Righteous - (of a person or conduct) morally right or justifiable; virtuous."

Jesus was speaking of worrying, not about planning.

That's not what the scripture says. If it's vague or ambiguous ("think not of tomorrow"), then it means whatever the reader wants it to mean.

Fear is the greatest ally for the rulers, with it they can make people to do and believe anything.

Agreed, but that doesn't address my comment, which was, "What is paying taxes so that we might all be safe (military, police, food inspection) and prosperous (infrastructure and markets, public education) and that the poor and sick, and unlucky have enough to live if not loving one's neighbor?" I'll answer for you: Paying taxes is a form of loving one's neighbor. Somebody loved me enough to make sure I got a good education with their taxes, and I had the opportunity to pay it forward to underwrite educating the next few generations.

Giving to caesar what is caesar's is not exactly the same as mandatory taxation.

Yes, it is. In your words, it's theft. Caesar considers your money to be paid as taxes his due. If you don't agree, you would feel robbed.

If people want roads, they can fund them freely for example by donating money for the project

That doesn't work as well as mandatory taxation and social spending on infrastructure.

All good and useful services can be arranged with voluntary payments, instead of mandatory taxation.

We saw how that worked during the pandemic. All progress and aid came from government. Governments funded the development and free distribution of the vaccines and disseminated personal protective equipment and viral testing kits at no charge. They supported individuals and businesses through a significant economic downturn. Where were the volunteers? Where were the deep pockets like the Catholic and Mormon churches? They kept their money.

I think Jesus was pro freedom and against tyranny.

If you consider mandatory taxes tyranny, then I'm for some forms of tyranny. They said vaccine and mask mandates were tyranny, too, and I supported that as well. And I'm also opposed to permitting much of what is being called freedom now, as when the right and Trump claim that his freedom to express himself freely is being unfairly and unconstitutionally denied him. We need to use both of those words more carefully.

I think in free capitalism producer gets money for what he produces and buyer gets some product or service for the the money. I think it is fair trade, if both are free to decide. And I think it is better than socialism, because in socialism there is no fair trade.

It's not an either-or proposition. It's an amalgam of the two that generates the society that offers the most social and economic opportunity to the most people to pursue happiness as they understand it. The socialism/taxation part gives us physical infrastructure (the commonwealth and its markets), human infrastructure (human development and well-being such as education, the pandemic response, and produce inspection), and a social safety net for the needy (disability payments, FEMA emergency payments). This requires that we pay some fraction of our income in taxes. And that needs to include the churches.