"Patriotic millionaires" call for their tax cuts to expire

[idea]

"Patriotic millionaires" call for their tax cuts to expire - Joe Conason - Salon.com

If they want to contribute, let them contribute with or without tax cuts... No one is stopping them from donating to whatever cause they think best...

whoops, already stated.

I support lower taxes, which lead to more jobs - more stable companies. I like what this nation was founded on, a nation by the people - not by gov. Socialism is not what made this nation great.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Unless they're doing something wrong, their personal income is not tied up in payroll, and if they want to tie it up in investments, that's up to them.

You know what? It is up to them, think about it.

I understand completely about small businesses. You're getting yourself confused. If a small business is bleeding money, they're probably not going to have to worry about having their taxes raised by the suggestion of these people, since they're not making $1 million a year. These people are living proof that the higher taxes you rail against so much won't cause double-digit unemployment to stay.

OK Matt, when I get invited to bid a project and I am the sucessful bidder, I have to purchase a job completion bond. Then I charge material which has to be paid monthly. I have to pay my employees weekly, I have to put gasoline into the trucks, I have to pay for the permit.

I also have to pre-pay my taxes on my projected income ahead of time. We are not even talking about my overhead. Office, phone, electric, water, insurance, truck payments, tools and advertising. I don't see any profit till the job is completed and even then, they hold back 10% for the warranty which is paid a year later.

Where on earth do you think this money comes from? Meanwhile, I cannot pay my bills late or I get penalties and interest charges on material. When I get a bill for Workman's comp and unemployment, I cannot wait till the project is over to send them the money, businesses must pay on time unlike customers who pay what they can when they can many times. Until the last dollar is collected, I don't see a return.

 

[Magic Man]

I don't like this phrasing. All of taxation is a disincentive, so the most important issue should be to design a tax structure which minimally operates against investor, business & worker productivity, while still raising needed revenue. This should trump discussions of "fairness", which would be addressed automatically if everyone gets to keep enuf of their marginal income to be encouraged to produce. This relates to why I found the Bush tax cuts a poor measure, since they preserved counterproductive personal tax deductions, while keeping the marginal tax rates relatively high. Economists in gov't don't seem to understand (at least publicly) the importance of incentives & disincentives, particularly
in the cases of companies looking at whether they're better off producing domestically or overseas. As long as we have leaders who look at economics & taxation simplistically as an "us against them" redistribution in the name of fairness, we'll keep losing ground to other countries.

In case you're not already, you might want to sit down.

I agree with this.

 

[Magic Man]

You know what? It is up to them, think about it.

I just said it was up to them. That's the point. It's their personal income. If they want to use it for investments, good for them.

OK Matt, when I get invited to bid a project and I am the sucessful bidder, I have to purchase a job completion bond. Then I charge material which has to be paid monthly. I have to pay my employees weekly, I have to put gasoline into the trucks, I have to pay for the permit.

I also have to pre-pay my taxes on my projected income ahead of time. We are not even talking about my overhead. Office, phone, electric, water, insurance, truck payments, tools and advertising. I don't see any profit till the job is completed and even then, they hold back 10% for the warranty which is paid a year later.

Where on earth do you think this money comes from? Meanwhile, I cannot pay my bills late or I get penalties and interest charges on material. When I get a bill for Workman's comp and unemployment, I cannot wait till the project is over to send them the money, businesses must pay on time unlike customers who pay what they can when they can many times. Until the last dollar is collected, I don't see a return.

Was there a point in here? After all of these business expenses, if you're making over $1 million personally, you'd be taxed more according to the suggestion of this group.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I just said it was up to them. That's the point. It's their personal income. If they want to use it for investments, good for them.



Was there a point in here? After all of these business expenses, if you're making over $1 million personally, you'd be taxed more according to the suggestion of this group.

It's a big circle Matt. The money comes in and you immediately reinvest in the next project. On paper you may be rich, but you sure don't feel like it. The thing is, the economy is just as much about feelings as anything else.

If you think money is tight, you don't buy that TV or new car. If I feel broke and worried, (even if I am full of crap) I'm not hiring!

 

[Magic Man]

It's a big circle Matt. The money comes in and you immediately reinvest in the next project. On paper you may be rich, but you sure don't feel like it. The thing is, the economy is just as much about feelings as anything else.

If you think money is tight, you don't buy that TV or new car. If I feel broke and worried, (even if I am full of crap) I'm not hiring!

If you own a small business, what is the next project you're immediately investing in? For example, I work at a small business. I know the owners personally (just from working here), and there are a total of about 100 employees. They run this business, and they gain personal income. They make new investments sometimes, things like a new tiny company they bought, but they're not constantly investing in new projects. They have their main source of income, which is the money they make from the business we do. If they didn't invest in new projects, and just kept running this business, they'd still be making that money.

 

[Reverend Rick]

If you own a small business, what is the next project you're immediately investing in?

I'm an electrical contractor.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

I like what this nation was founded on, a nation by the people - not by gov.

The government is elected by the people and represents the people. I don't understand people that hate the government then go vote.

Socialism is not what made this nation great.

It worked fairly well for the few things FDR did.

It seems to be working year after year in Scandinavian countries who are democratic socialists.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm an electrical contractor.

Are you required to use accrual accounting, as are general contractors? Non-business types should know that this means paying income tax
on income you're scheduled to receive...even if you don't receive it. (In later years you get to deduct the bad debt...if you have the income.)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's a big circle Matt. The money comes in and you immediately reinvest in the next project. On paper you may be rich, but you sure don't feel like it. The thing is, the economy is just as much about feelings as anything else.

We are talking about personal income, not business taxes. Assuming you have put yourself on a budget like most small business owners, the expenses you listed should be coming from a business account, not your personal account. And it is what sits in someones personal account that is taxed.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Are you required to use accrual accounting, as are general contractors? Non-business types should know that this means paying income tax
on income you're scheduled to receive...even if you don't receive it. (In later years you get to deduct the bad debt...if you have the income.)

Yeah, it's a guessing game. Put down too little, and pay a fine.

Paying taxes on money you have not even made yet sucks.

 

[Reverend Rick]

We are talking about personal income, not business taxes. Assuming you have put yourself on a budget like most small business owners, the expenses you listed should be coming from a business account, not your personal account. And it is what sits in someones personal account that is taxed.

Many small businesses do not pay their taxes separately. Yes, we have different checking accounts, (business and personal) but guess what happens when there is a check to write and there is no money in the business account?

I'm getting tired of explaining the differences between small business and big business.

Yes, in a perfect world your customers pay you on time and projects finish on schedule and your balance sheet is in the black all the time.

In real life, it don't work out that way. This is why more than half of all new business starts don't make it. People just assume that everything pays for it's self.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah, it's a guessing game. Put down too little, and pay a fine.
Paying taxes on money you have not even made yet sucks.

Most contractors I know don't have the accounting sophistication to use accrual accounting. One guy who does is smarter & more
systems oriented than most, yet even for him it's a royal pain in his sitting organ to track all that must be done. (He uses Peachtree.)
I'm glad they never required it of landlords....that would mean civil disobedience time.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Most contractors I know don't have the accounting sophistication to use accrual accounting. One guy who does is smarter & more
systems oriented than most, yet even for him it's a royal pain in his sitting organ to track all that must be done. (He uses Peachtree.)
I'm glad they never required it of landlords....that would mean civil disobedience time.

I've got a CPA that handles everything including payroll. The thing is, he tells me we need to pay this or that. You total it up and it exceeds your balance. You start cussing and want to know why there is no money and find out many invoices are 90 days behind.

With the wonderful world of computers, you transfer more funds into the business account to keep things afloat awaiting a big check that seems to take for ever to get to you. When it comes in and the check clears, you breath a sigh of relief and enjoy the temporary tranquility.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm getting tired of explaining the differences between small business and big business.

Good, because I'm getting tired of hearing your explanations that have nothing to do with anything.

Yes, in a perfect world your customers pay you on time and projects finish on schedule and your balance sheet is in the black all the time.

In real life, it don't work out that way. This is why more than half of all new business starts don't make it. People just assume that everything pays for it's self.

Ah, more explanations that aren't explaining anything and aren't relevant. Here's the deal. You own a small business. You have business expenses. You pay for all of that out of your business capital. the leftover that you take home personally is what we are talking about getting taxed. Nobody assumes anything pays for itself or that customers pay you on time all the time. But that also has nothing to do with the fact that that is all business expenses, not personal ones.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Good, because I'm getting tired of hearing your explanations that have nothing to do with anything.

OK Matt, we are done here. You refuse to understand that businesses need investment capital to operate and where it comes from. Big business gets it's money from the government, small business used to get business loans and that is not happening right now.

Ah, more explanations that aren't explaining anything and aren't relevant. Here's the deal. You own a small business. You have business expenses. You pay for all of that out of your business capital. the leftover that you take home personally is what we are talking about getting taxed. Nobody assumes anything pays for itself or that customers pay you on time all the time. But that also has nothing to do with the fact that that is all business expenses, not personal ones.

Once again, you just don't understand that many small businesses are taxed as personal income. Yes, corporations get taxed separately from personal income, but all businesses are not corporations.

You say you pay for everything out of your business capital, but you don't understand the problems small businesses have with cash flow.

What is a business suppose to do when their business capital is zero because of customers non-payment?

For me to make a million dollars, I have to put up over 4 million FIRST.

WHERE DOES THAT FOUR MILLION COME FROM?

Even if you have made 4 million in the past, you still don't have four million after taxes do you?

Surely you can understand that it takes money to make money right?

What it boils down to, the more money the government takes, the less I have to invest. The less money I have to invest, the less money I make AND THE LESS PEOPLE I EMPLOY!

All you can see is a pile of cash you want to take away from me and give to a wasteful government which has done nothing to improve unemployment.

If everything works like you think it does, why did we need to bail out GM?

NO ONE IS BAILING OUT THE SMALL BUSINESSMAN. THEY ARE THE ONE WHO CREATS JOBS HERE IN THE U.S.A.

The government is bailing out huge corporations who ship jobs overseas and then you all wonder why we have double digit unemployment.

I don't expect you to understand this. It is obvious you have no clue how a business is run and where the money comes from. Try starting a business, hiring folks and make a profit. After you get a clue, get back to me. :slap:

 

[Revoltingest]

What is a business suppose to do when their business capital is zero because of customers non-payment?

This has killed businesses I know. Cash flow & profit are zip, but you still have liability for income tax & single business tax (in MI).
I don't include those who spend withheld payroll taxes though - that's reckless & wrong. One should not spend escrow money.

....the more money the government takes, the less I have to invest. The less money I have to invest, the less money I make AND THE LESS PEOPLE I EMPLOY!

This is where I think gov't is most insane. The idea that you take money from Peter, give it to Paul, & trumpet that you created jobs
by embiggening Paul is ridiculous. They fail to understand that Peter earned his money & is more productive than Paul. It yields a net
reduction in economic activity. This is why we need a president who understands the economy from having taken part in it, rather than
a prez who hires people who merely study the economy without every putting a nickel of their own at risk.

 

[Reverend Rick]

This has killed businesses I know. Cash flow & profit are zip, but you still have liability for income tax & single business tax (in MI).
I don't include those who spend withheld payroll taxes though - that's reckless & wrong. One should not spend escrow money.

This is where I think gov't is most insane. The idea that you take money from Peter, give it to Paul, & trumpet that you created jobs
by embiggening Paul is ridiculous. They fail to understand that Peter earned his money & is more productive than Paul. It yields a net
reduction in economic activity. This is why we need a president who understands the economy from having taken part in it, rather than
a prez who hires people who merely study the economy without every putting a nickel of their own at risk.

I really don't think people realize just how many years it takes to have enough after tax money to invest on a large scale. You take a whole decade of hard work investment capital and lay it on the line. No one wants to acknowledge the risk you take or how many hours you work. All they see is a rich evil capitalist.

 

[Magic Man]

OK Matt, we are done here. You refuse to understand that businesses need investment capital to operate and where it comes from. Big business gets it's money from the government, small business used to get business loans and that is not happening right now.

Once again, you just don't understand that many small businesses are taxed as personal income. Yes, corporations get taxed separately from personal income, but all businesses are not corporations.

You say you pay for everything out of your business capital, but you don't understand the problems small businesses have with cash flow.

What is a business suppose to do when their business capital is zero because of customers non-payment?

For me to make a million dollars, I have to put up over 4 million FIRST.

WHERE DOES THAT FOUR MILLION COME FROM?

Even if you have made 4 million in the past, you still don't have four million after taxes do you?

Surely you can understand that it takes money to make money right?

What it boils down to, the more money the government takes, the less I have to invest. The less money I have to invest, the less money I make AND THE LESS PEOPLE I EMPLOY!

All you can see is a pile of cash you want to take away from me and give to a wasteful government which has done nothing to improve unemployment.

If everything works like you think it does, why did we need to bail out GM?

NO ONE IS BAILING OUT THE SMALL BUSINESSMAN. THEY ARE THE ONE WHO CREATS JOBS HERE IN THE U.S.A.

The government is bailing out huge corporations who ship jobs overseas and then you all wonder why we have double digit unemployment.

I don't expect you to understand this. It is obvious you have no clue how a business is run and where the money comes from. Try starting a business, hiring folks and make a profit. After you get a clue, get back to me. :slap:

Rick, please take a deep breath. I understand how business works. What I don't understand is your point in wasting time with these details. Here's the deal: You make $1 million in personal income, that's personal income. According to you the government should just not tax you at all. That way you'll be that much more willing to expand your business. However, since we need taxes, we need to tax you. Since you're making a lot of money, you pay a higher percentage in tax.

If you decide to reply, please leave all the nonsense about unrelated stuff like bailing out GM and "seeing big piles of cash", etc. I'd rather you stick to the actual topic at hand, which is the fact that the top 1% of earners have seen their income shoot up drastically relative to everyone else.

From 1979 to 2007, the average after-tax income of the top 1% went from $347,000 to about $1.3 million. That's an increase of about 281 percent. During that same period, the middle quintile (the earners in the 40-60% range) saw their average after-tax income go from $44,100 to $55,300 or about a 25 percent increase. The bottom quintile of earners saw theirs go from $15,300 to $17,700 or about 16% increase. So, that top 1% has done very well over the last 30 years, and yet the majority of the country isn't seeing much improvement and obviously it hasn't helped the economy.

 

[Revoltingest]

All they see is a rich evil capitalist.

I want that view of me to be accurate.
I'm working on becoming rich again.