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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
"There is throughout Paul's writings an irrational or pathological element which could not but repel the disciples of the Rabbis. Possibly his pessimistic mood was the result of his physical condition; for he suffered from an illness which affected both body and mind. He speaks of it as "a thorn in the flesh," and as a heavy stroke by "a messenger of Satan" (II Cor. xii. 7), which often caused him to realize his utter helplessness, and made him an object of pity and horror (Gal. iv. 13)."
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11952-paul-of-tarsus
Right?

Regards
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
"There is throughout Paul's writings an irrational or pathological element which could not but repel the disciples of the Rabbis. Possibly his pessimistic mood was the result of his physical condition; for he suffered from an illness which affected both body and mind. He speaks of it as "a thorn in the flesh," and as a heavy stroke by "a messenger of Satan" (II Cor. xii. 7), which often caused him to realize his utter helplessness, and made him an object of pity and horror (Gal. iv. 13)."
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11952-paul-of-tarsus
Right?

Regards
As I read those scriptures, I find this application totally out of context and application. Perhaps because it is from the Jewish Encyclopedia? Who knows, maybe related to those that persecuted him?
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"There is throughout Paul's writings an irrational or pathological element which could not but repel the disciples of the Rabbis. Possibly his pessimistic mood was the result of his physical condition; for he suffered from an illness which affected both body and mind. He speaks of it as "a thorn in the flesh," and as a heavy stroke by "a messenger of Satan" (II Cor. xii. 7), which often caused him to realize his utter helplessness, and made him an object of pity and horror (Gal. iv. 13)."
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11952-paul-of-tarsus
Right?

Regards
Ah, taking a swipe at a religious leader for having a debilitating illness.

Does this mean it is ok to talk about the way in which Mirza Ghulam Ahmad died?

In my opinion.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Is Jesus' warnings of false prophets and those who would come after him not enough to cast doubt on Paul? You have to go after his illnesses?
 
"There is throughout Paul's writings an irrational or pathological element which could not but repel the disciples of the Rabbis. Possibly his pessimistic mood was the result of his physical condition; for he suffered from an illness which affected both body and mind. He speaks of it as "a thorn in the flesh," and as a heavy stroke by "a messenger of Satan" (II Cor. xii. 7), which often caused him to realize his utter helplessness, and made him an object of pity and horror (Gal. iv. 13)."
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11952-paul-of-tarsus
Right?

Regards
No, he was just another announcer of the good news.

I have read the provided Jewish encyclopedia link about Paul.

What a long and hateful group of sentences here and there.

To make the story of Paul very simple, he was from the tribe of Benjamin. But when the original kingdom was divided by the two sons of king Salomon, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin jointed together to form the kingdom of Judah. From here, the descendants of Benjamin became citizens of the the kingdom of Judah, and they were also called Jews.

The apostles, including Paul, weren't sent to teach the Law. So, the arguments about the Law from Paul's side, was to focus more in faith than in the Law itself.

In a meeting between the apostles, they decided not to talk about the Law, but solely to prevent the new members of idolatry and similar. They decided to leave the teaching of the Law to the synagogues around. This is why they say, "gentiles have Moses at the synagogues every sabbath".

This decision carried huge problems to the priests of the synagogues. First, lots of Jews started to ask the priest about Yeshu, because they have heard the good news by other members. Besides this situation, the gentiles started to assist sabbath services at the synagogues, obeying the suggestion of the apostles.

Here is when the High priest can't handle it anymore. His synagogues started to be places of reunion for the new adepts of the good news: Houston, we have a problem.

Here is when Saul was sent to persecute and prosecute Jews who "converted" the the message of the good news. Oh yeah, Saul was very obedient and had no problems killing every "good news dude" on his way.

In his way persecuting new adepts of the gospel, the story says he changed his uniform and played for the apostles team.

Like the apostles, Saul also received wisdom.

This is not something uncommon in the Bible. King Saul, also received that kind of inspiration from the God and started to prophesy. Same it happened in times of Moses when others started to prophesy as well. With King Saul, the others were surprised and said, "what the hell?! Saul also between the prophets?!"

With Moses, he said, "Hope all you guys become prophets, because to tell the truth, you really are stiff-necked people! Please take my job, I need vacations...

Well, Saul's Job encountered lots of troubles, but he didn't quit. About his health, who cares? Nobody is perfect.

So far, the apostles fulfilled their jobs, the announcement of the good news, which was the only message they were assigned to preach in Jerusalem, Samaria and all around the world.

On the other side, the Jews lost their Temple, and were scattered and adopted mystical paths in order to compete with the extraordinary teachings from the apostles. Oh, sure, with that "spirit" they received, sheesss! they really rolled on.

The Jews ended with the same old, same old: one Rabi with his Gemara saying "it's black!", the another saying, "it's white", and a third one saying: "it's black and white", and everybody happy.

The article is weird. Apparently the author of it has no knowledge of the word game found in ancient Hebrew.

Criticizing Paul the article states:

which he takes as signifying that Abraham was to be the father of the Gentiles instead of nations...

UH?

In the Tanach, when the descendants of Japheth are mentioned, in Genesis 10:5, the word goyim is interpreted and even translated as "nations". However, this word is also the same word for "gentiles".The first ones to be called gentiles are the descendants of Japheth.

And goyim is later on used in the Bible to describe the ones outside the chosen people. It's meaning became more expanded. That's all.

Definitively the guilty part is not Paul but the translator to Greek language of that book in the new testament. Paul didn't write that book, a scribe or someone else did that task.

To conclude, Paul is not Paul, because his name was Shaul.

Who knows who changed his name in the books of the new testament, but surely this name Paul is more a curse or a mockery. That name was not given by the God to this individual, as it happened with other biblical characters.

At the end of the day, he did OK. He worked for his God.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
No, he was just another announcer of the good news.

I have read the provided Jewish encyclopedia link about Paul.

What a long and hateful group of sentences here and there.

To make the story of Paul very simple, he was from the tribe of Benjamin. But when the original kingdom was divided by the two sons of king Salomon, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin jointed together to form the kingdom of Judah. From here, the descendants of Benjamin became citizens of the the kingdom of Judah, and they were also called Jews.

The apostles, including Paul, weren't sent to teach the Law. So, the arguments about the Law from Paul's side, was to focus more in faith than in the Law itself.

In a meeting between the apostles, they decided not to talk about the Law, but solely to prevent the new members of idolatry and similar. They decided to leave the teaching of the Law to the synagogues around. This is why they say, "gentiles have Moses at the synagogues every sabbath".

This decision carried huge problems to the priests of the synagogues. First, lots of Jews started to ask the priest about Yeshu, because they have heard the good news by other members. Besides this situation, the gentiles started to assist sabbath services at the synagogues, obeying the suggestion of the apostles.

Here is when the High priest can't handle it anymore. His synagogues started to be places of reunion for the new adepts of the good news: Houston, we have a problem.

Here is when Saul was sent to persecute and prosecute Jews who "converted" the the message of the good news. Oh yeah, Saul was very obedient and had no problems killing every "good news dude" on his way.

In his way persecuting new adepts of the gospel, the story says he changed his uniform and played for the apostles team.

Like the apostles, Saul also received wisdom.

This is not something uncommon in the Bible. King Saul, also received that kind of inspiration from the God and started to prophesy. Same it happened in times of Moses when others started to prophesy as well. With King Saul, the others were surprised and said, "what the hell?! Saul also between the prophets?!"

With Moses, he said, "Hope all you guys become prophets, because to tell the truth, you really are stiff-necked people! Please take my job, I need vacations...

Well, Saul's Job encountered lots of troubles, but he didn't quit. About his health, who cares? Nobody is perfect.

So far, the apostles fulfilled their jobs, the announcement of the good news, which was the only message they were assigned to preach in Jerusalem, Samaria and all around the world.

On the other side, the Jews lost their Temple, and were scattered and adopted mystical paths in order to compete with the extraordinary teachings from the apostles. Oh, sure, with that "spirit" they received, sheesss! they really rolled on.

The Jews ended with the same old, same old: one Rabi with his Gemara saying "it's black!", the another saying, "it's white", and a third one saying: "it's black and white", and everybody happy.

The article is weird. Apparently the author of it has no knowledge of the word game found in ancient Hebrew.

Criticizing Paul the article states:

which he takes as signifying that Abraham was to be the father of the Gentiles instead of nations...

UH?

In the Tanach, when the descendants of Japheth are mentioned, in Genesis 10:5, the word goyim is interpreted and even translated as "nations". However, this word is also the same word for "gentiles".The first ones to be called gentiles are the descendants of Japheth.

And goyim is later on used in the Bible to describe the ones outside the chosen people. It's meaning became more expanded. That's all.

Definitively the guilty part is not Paul but the translator to Greek language of that book in the new testament. Paul didn't write that book, a scribe or someone else did that task.

To conclude, Paul is not Paul, because his name was Shaul.

Who knows who changed his name in the books of the new testament, but surely this name Paul is more a curse or a mockery. That name was not given by the God to this individual, as it happened with other biblical characters.

At the end of the day, he did OK. He worked for his God.
"To make the story of Paul very simple, he was from the tribe of Benjamin. "

Isn't it dubious, please?:

"The claim in Rom. xi. 1 and Phil. iii. 5 that he was of the tribe of Benjamin, suggested by the similarity of his name with that of the first Israelitish king, is, if the passages are genuine, a false one, no tribal lists or pedigrees of this kind having been in existence at that time (see Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." i. 7, 5; Pes. 62b; M. Sachs, "Beiträge zur Sprach- und Alterthumsforschung," 1852, ii. 157).
SAUL OF TARSUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com

There is no historicity of Paul's being from the tribe of Benjamin. I understand. Right?

Regards
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
There is no historicity of Paul's being from the tribe of Benjamin. I understand. Right?

Historians claim there's not a scintilla of evidence for the Jewish exodus from Egypt. That would make the giving of the Law at Horeb a horrible, ahistorical, heresy. I understand. Right? :D

paar4_zpsnto2ictv.png

. . . Except Paul. I understand. Right?o_O



John
 
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"To make the story of Paul very simple, he was from the tribe of Benjamin. "

Isn't it dubious, please?:

"The claim in Rom. xi. 1 and Phil. iii. 5 that he was of the tribe of Benjamin, suggested by the similarity of his name with that of the first Israelitish king, is, if the passages are genuine, a false one, no tribal lists or pedigrees of this kind having been in existence at that time (see Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." i. 7, 5; Pes. 62b; M. Sachs, "Beiträge zur Sprach- und Alterthumsforschung," 1852, ii. 157).
SAUL OF TARSUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com

There is no historicity of Paul's being from the tribe of Benjamin. I understand. Right?

Regards

There is a book, The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and its Heritage, written by Arthur Koestler.

In short words, it is about descendants of Simeon, Levi, and Judah, who tried to make a Jewish empire in... oh, this is good... in Ukraine. This is about 700 After Christ.

And genetics seem to back up the claims of people over there, of coming from those tribes.

This means, that they knew who they were. They kept their chronological tree with them, and even if this tree was orally transmitted if no by written.

Lets go to the Bible.

When Yeshu (Jesus) had a talk with the Samaritan woman, she mentioned him that the well -where both were in front of- belonged to "her ancestor", who was Jacob.

" Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”

In other words, she knew she was a Samaritan because she probably was from an Israelite family mixed with members of different peoples, but she was told about her Israelite inheritance anyways.

Same with Shaul. He knew were he came from, I find no reason from him to invent such a inheritance.

Unless you have at hand his birth certificate saying the contrary or, two witness from his time, who knew him, and deny such relation of him with the tribe of Benjamin, I think that you have nothing to establish different.

Be careful if you say that the whole fuss about Shaul (Paul) is just an invention, because that can also be said about the entire Bible.

With lots of verses or texts probably added or taken away, The Bible is still credible, and the more it is analyzed, the more the claims from it become more settled with historical records.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
"There is throughout Paul's writings an irrational or pathological element which could not but repel the disciples of the Rabbis. Possibly his pessimistic mood was the result of his physical condition; for he suffered from an illness which affected both body and mind. He speaks of it as "a thorn in the flesh," and as a heavy stroke by "a messenger of Satan" (II Cor. xii. 7), which often caused him to realize his utter helplessness, and made him an object of pity and horror (Gal. iv. 13)."
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11952-paul-of-tarsus
Right?

Regards

I do not believe so. I believe the flesh can't alter the Spirit.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Is Jesus' warnings of false prophets and those who would come after him not enough to cast doubt on Paul? You have to go after his illnesses?

I believe that logic is false. Jesus did not name Paul so there is no direct evidence that He was speaking about Paul. I believe God in me sees Paul as a faithful servant.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Historians claim there's not a scintilla of evidence for the Jewish exodus from Egypt. That would make the giving of the Law at Horeb a horrible, ahistorical, heresy. I understand. Right? :D



. . . Except Paul. I understand. Right?o_O



John

I believe there is not a scintilla of evidence that I care what historians think.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I believe that logic is false. Jesus did not name Paul so there is no direct evidence that He was speaking about Paul. I believe God in me sees Paul as a faithful servant.
Jesus didn't name anyone specific, he just said false prophets were coming.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Jesus didn't name anyone specific, he just said false prophets were coming.

And Paul, I understand, is a sure candidate of being a false prophet in terms of Deuteronomy 13:1–5:

1Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
2If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
5You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9977/jewish/Chapter-13.htm
Right?
Rather than being an apostle, one may and or could conclude, Paul is the seed of Anti-Christ, that later (together with Paul's associates and the Church) as Pauline-Christianity blossomed to full blown Anti-Christ, I understand. Right?

Regards
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I believe there is not a scintilla of evidence that I care what historians think.

I think there's more than a scintilla of evidence in your posts that that would be the case. And in my humble opinion there's less historicity in Attila the Hun than evidence that you've given a scintilla of of time to anything but what you consider fun. :D



John
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Paul: "a messenger of Satan" and or Devil?!

Paul did not know Jesus, Paul never met Jesus and Paul was never in association/training of Jesus. Paul was never a disciple of Jesus.
On one hand Paul by falsely declaring death of Jesus on the Cross Paul confirmed to the Jews that Jesus was a false Messenger/Prophet in terms of Deuteronomy 21:22-23,Deuteronomy - Chapter 13:2-4, thus alienating the Jews from accepting Jesus as Messiah .
Is it not enough to prove that Paul was a Messenger/Prophet of Satan and or Devil? Right?

Regards
____________
“Anyone Hung Upon A Pole Is Under God’s Curse:” Deuteronomy 21:22-23:
22 If a man commits a sin for which he is sentenced to death, and he is put to death, you shall [then] hang him on a pole.
23 But you shall not leave his body on the pole overnight. Rather, you shall bury him on that [same] day, for a hanging [human corpse] is a blasphemy of God, and you shall not defile your land, which the Lord, your God, is giving you as an inheritance.
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9985/jewish/Chapter-21.htm


Deuteronomy - Chapter 13:2-4
2 If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3 and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4 you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9977/jewish/Chapter-13.htm
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Paul did not know Jesus, Paul never met Jesus and Paul was never in association/training of Jesus.
Did you? Were you?

“Anyone Hung Upon A Pole Is Under God’s Curse:” Deuteronomy 21:22-23:
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:" Isaiah 53:10.

22 If a man commits a sin for which he is sentenced to death, and he is put to death, you shall [then] hang him on a pole.
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: Yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But it was because of our transgressions, he was bruised for our sins, the chastisement that brought us peace was upon him; and with his suffering we are healed.

Isaiah 53:4-5.

23 But you shall not leave his body on the pole overnight. Rather, you shall bury him on that [same] day, for a hanging [human corpse] is a blasphemy of God, and you shall not defile your land, which the Lord, your God, is giving you as an inheritance.
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

John 19:31.​

Deuteronomy - Chapter 13:2-4
2 If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3 and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4 you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9977/jewish/Chapter-13.htm

Jesus prophesied that he would be martyred as a false prophet by the judges of such things. If that prophesy given by him is true, then perhaps all the others are too even though the judges of such things misjudge such things and for their troubles lose the land given to those who make proper judgments concerning such things.



John
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
Paul did not know Jesus, Paul never met Jesus and Paul was never in association/training of Jesus.
Did you? Were you?

John
If Paul did know Jesus , he met Jesus and was in association/training of Jesus, then why did he persecute followers of Jesus, please? Right?

Regards
____________________

"Saul/Paul was not a follower of Jesus and did not know him before his crucifixion. "
Conversion of Paul the Apostle - Wikipedia
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
paarsurrey said:
Paul did not know Jesus, Paul never met Jesus and Paul was never in association/training of Jesus.

If Paul did know Jesus , he met Jesus and was in association/training of Jesus, then why did he persecute followers of Jesus, please? Right?

Regards
____________________

"Saul/Paul was not a follower of Jesus and did not know him before his crucifixion. "
Conversion of Paul the Apostle - Wikipedia

I never said Paul knew Jesus except in a postmortem sense. I asked if you knew Jesus personally before he died? Because if not, then why do you suppose your opinion concerning Jesus is superior to Paul's?



John
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Is Jesus' warnings of false prophets and those who would come after him not enough to cast doubt on Paul? You have to go after his illnesses?
" You have to go after his illnesses?"
Let us look into it.
" His (Paul's) Epilepsy.

There is throughout Paul's writings an irrational or pathological element which could not but repel the disciples of the Rabbis. Possibly his pessimistic mood was the result of his physical condition; for he suffered from an illness which affected both body and mind. He speaks of it as "a thorn in the flesh," and as a heavy stroke by "a messenger of Satan" (II Cor. xii. 7), which often caused him to realize his utter helplessness, and made him an object of pity and horror (Gal. iv. 13). "
SAUL OF TARSUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Right?

Regards
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
" You have to go after his illnesses?"
Let us look into it.
" His (Paul's) Epilepsy.

There is throughout Paul's writings an irrational or pathological element which could not but repel the disciples of the Rabbis. Possibly his pessimistic mood was the result of his physical condition; for he suffered from an illness which affected both body and mind. He speaks of it as "a thorn in the flesh," and as a heavy stroke by "a messenger of Satan" (II Cor. xii. 7), which often caused him to realize his utter helplessness, and made him an object of pity and horror (Gal. iv. 13). "
SAUL OF TARSUS - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Right?

Regards
Yes, why attack his illness? That's not cool.
 
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