Paul vs "the law" (can humans earn righteousness?)

[Simplelogic]

Every son sees his Father differently. This is God's will being done. God lacks nothing. When the son of man speaks, he speaks as Adam had. The son of man relies on the wisdom of his fathers, but the wisdom of the fathers will always lack.

All praise to God; knowing all things.

Not sure your point here.

 

[Simplelogic]

Life under the law means I must know the law and the law rules (is ruler). Life under grace means I must know love and love rules. Even after a person accepts the grace of God and lives to obey love he is still able to stray, thus the law will never become obsolete.

Nope. Love is the whole point to the law:

"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. Deut 6: 5

Now look at who God bestows grace/love upon:

but showing gracious love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. Deut 5:10

6but showing faithful love to a thousand generations ofthose who love Me and keep My commands. Ex 20: 6

The law was all about love from the beginning. Also, grace was already in existence during this period. It wasn't invented in the NT.

 

[Nakosis]

Which concept does your religion agree with more?

The law is for folks who don't know how to behave properly. If everyone did behave properly we wouldn't needs laws.

I think that some Christians believe that being "born again", causes a spiritual transformation. Like a kind of enlightenment. This puts them in a state that the law is no longer necessary for them.

The law is for unenlightened folks so they can know how to behave properly. The law is necessary until one has transformed into a fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

 

[savagewind]

Nope. Love is the whole point to the law:

"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. Deut 6: 5

Now look at who God bestows grace/love upon:

but showing gracious love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. Deut 5:10

6but showing faithful love to a thousand generations ofthose who love Me and keep My commands. Ex 20: 6

The law was all about love from the beginning. Also, grace was already in existence during this period. It wasn't invented in the NT.

The law is what conceived Jesus Christ on the Earth imho.

 

[savagewind]

The Law cause the birth of Jesus Christ by Mary, no law, no Jesus Christ.

 

[ether-ore]

What need is there for grace then?

There is a passage in the Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 25:23) which reads: "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." The point of this is, as I said in post #114, that the all we can do part consists in keeping the commandments of God to the best of our abilities until the end of our lives, thus being reconciled to God. God then, upon our sincere repentance, applies His grace to save us from having to pay the penalties for our sins (because even though we may have repented, we have still sinned and are therefore unclean). Our works of obedience do not gain for us salvation, but, without our having made the effort to demonstrate our desire, we will not receive the gift of grace. God grants to all of His children according to their desires. The thing is, desires are demonstrated by works. Good works = good desires = gift of grace applied. Bad works = evil desires = gift of grace not applied. Grace cannot be earned, but it is not given where it is not desired as demonstrated by works.

 

[savagewind]

There is a passage in the Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 25:23) which reads: "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." The point of this is, as I said in post #114, that the all we can do part consists in keeping the commandments of God to the best of our abilities until the end of our lives, thus being reconciled to God. God then, upon our sincere repentance, applies His grace to save us from having to pay the penalties for our sins (because even though we may have repented, we have still sinned and are therefore unclean). Our works of obedience do not gain for us salvation, but, without our having made the effort to demonstrate our desire, we will not receive the gift of grace. God grants to all of His children according to their desires. The thing is, desires are demonstrated by works. Good works = good desires = gift of grace applied. Bad works = evil desires = gift of grace not applied. Grace cannot be earned, but it is not given where it is not desired as demonstrated by works.

Good point! If a person is not willing to show another person the way to God's grace then he is not really worthy of it.

 

[Simplelogic]

The law is for folks who don't know how to behave properly. If everyone did behave properly we wouldn't needs laws.

I think that some Christians believe that being "born again", causes a spiritual transformation. Like a kind of enlightenment. This puts them in a state that the law is no longer necessary for them.

The law is for unenlightened folks so they can know how to behave properly. The law is necessary until one has transformed into a fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

This is what Paul says about the law. Not what God says.

 

[Simplelogic]

There is a passage in the Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 25:23) which reads: "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." The point of this is, as I said in post #114, that the all we can do part consists in keeping the commandments of God to the best of our abilities until the end of our lives, thus being reconciled to God. God then, upon our sincere repentance, applies His grace to save us from having to pay the penalties for our sins (because even though we may have repented, we have still sinned and are therefore unclean). Our works of obedience do not gain for us salvation, but, without our having made the effort to demonstrate our desire, we will not receive the gift of grace. God grants to all of His children according to their desires. The thing is, desires are demonstrated by works. Good works = good desires = gift of grace applied. Bad works = evil desires = gift of grace not applied. Grace cannot be earned, but it is not given where it is not desired as demonstrated by works.

So it is earned. Yet Paul declares that works have nothing to do with justification. And Mormons continue to defend Paul??

 

[savagewind]

To know something is work. Is it not? A person cannot accept God's grace but not know about it. Correct?
By acts, a person comes to know the love of God. Acts are work.
If I listen to the Spirit and obey it I have done work. Haven't I?

 

[Nakosis]

This is what Paul says about the law. Not what God says.

God doesn't say anything, just folks claiming to speak for God. Who you trust to speak for God is up to you.

 

[ether-ore]

So it is earned. Yet Paul declares that works have nothing to do with justification. And Mormons continue to defend Paul??

There are many things Paul said that were directed to a specific audience. He was phrasing his words so as to emphasize those portions of the gospel that those particular members of the church needed to hear for their circumstances and their maturity in the gospel. There are things which Paul said to a particular audience that do not necessarily apply to us today. However, there are most definitely aspects of the gospel which are enduring truths. Among these are the truths concerning the relationship of grace and works. In Hebrews, Paul was talking to those members of the church who, being Jewish, were steeped in the Mosaic law and considered that salvation came through the adherence to specified rules (or works)... for example... the law of circumcision. They needed to have emphasized to them the importance of grace.

James on the other hand, in a general epistle to everyone, felt it necessary to emphasize the importance of works... saying in James 2:17-20: "
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The point is that there are works of the law which are applicable to everyone at all times. The works of the law such as loving God, loving one's neighbor, repenting, being baptized and living righteous lives to the end of one's days are necessary before the grace of Jesus will (or can be) applied to save people from (not in) their sins.

So, What Mormons are defending is the concept of the relationship of grace and works together in a covenant relationship with God... that both grace and works are necessary. Works does play a role in our salvation, but... It is the grace of The Messiah, Jesus Christ, His atonement that "justifies" us. But the atonement is not applied to the individual; that is, justification will not be applied, unless and until he demonstrates his desire (through his obedience and his works) to be saved. One may have the desire to be saved, but it will only occur for those who are obedient to the prescribed path ordained of God.

 

[Sleeppy]

Not sure your point here.

The point is ultimately always this: trust that the zealousness of the Creator is perfect. He created us, knowing us- because He created all things of Himself and for Himself. No one spontaneously produces knowledge of anything, let alone the kingdom of heaven. Righteousness is given. -- But the perception of man causes him to call himself a god, apart from the Creator. But, contrary to the imperfect perception afforded to all creation (in this case men, especially), there is no free will. All power remains toward One purpose.

 

[kepha31]

There are many things Paul said that were directed to a specific audience. He was phrasing his words so as to emphasize those portions of the gospel that those particular members of the church needed to hear for their circumstances and their maturity in the gospel. There are things which Paul said to a particular audience that do not necessarily apply to us today. However, there are most definitely aspects of the gospel which are enduring truths. Among these are the truths concerning the relationship of grace and works. In Hebrews, Paul was talking to those members of the church who, being Jewish, were steeped in the Mosaic law and considered that salvation came through the adherence to specified rules (or works)... for example... the law of circumcision. They needed to have emphasized to them the importance of grace.

What they needed was a Council in Jerusalem with full apostolic authority to settle the matter, which they got.

James on the other hand, in a general epistle to everyone, felt it necessary to emphasize the importance of works... saying in James 2:17-20: "
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The point is that there are works of the law which are applicable to everyone at all times. The works of the law such as loving God, loving one's neighbor, repenting, being baptized and living righteous lives to the end of one's days are necessary before the grace of Jesus will (or can be) applied to save people from (not in) their sins.[/quote]
Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." (good works)Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
REVIEW
ergon nomou = works of the law
ergois agathois = good works

Rom. 4:3-4 - Paul refers to works apart from God's grace. We do not obligate God to give us grace like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a work of law or obligation.
http://scripturecatholic.com/justification.html#justification-II

 

[ether-ore]

What they needed was a Council in Jerusalem with full apostolic authority to settle the matter, which they got.

James on the other hand, in a general epistle to everyone, felt it necessary to emphasize the importance of works... saying in James 2:17-20: "
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The point is that there are works of the law which are applicable to everyone at all times. The works of the law such as loving God, loving one's neighbor, repenting, being baptized and living righteous lives to the end of one's days are necessary before the grace of Jesus will (or can be) applied to save people from (not in) their sins.

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." (good works)Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.
REVIEW
ergon nomou = works of the law
ergois agathois = good works

Rom. 4:3-4 - Paul refers to works apart from God's grace. We do not obligate God to give us grace like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a work of law or obligation.
http://scripturecatholic.com/justification.html#justification-II[/QUOTE]

Nothing I said indicates a contradiction. Just different emphasis at different times for different audiences to meet their specific needs. I do not believe Paul and James were at odds with each other on the issue of grace and works.

In terms of obligation, I would say that God wishes to bless us with salvation, but is not able to do it unless we repent. For he says that He cannot save us in our sins, but that He can only save us from our sins on condition of repentance. The fact that it is conditional indicates a covenant relationship. In a covenant relationship, the two parties agree that if one agrees to do a thing, the other party is indeed obligated to do the other. In our covenant relationship with God, we agree to keep His commandments for which if we do, He agrees to apply His atonement to our sins.

I know this is a bone of contention between LDS and other Christian denominations. Nevertheless, I consider the LDS position to be more reasonable... that it makes more sense. God loves us and wants to bless us, but He cannot break His own law. He has said that unless we repent, He cannot save us, for He says He cannot save us in our sins, only from them on condition of repentance. The command has always been: repent and be baptized. That is a requirement or the individual cannot be saved.

 

[Simplelogic]

God doesn't say anything, just folks claiming to speak for God. Who you trust to speak for God is up to you.

Ok then. Let me clarify. I'm not here to convince you who was speaking for God and who wasn't . The fact is the EVERY other prophet or teacher in the Torah/Tanakh taught the opposite about God then what Paul taught. Even Jesus taught the opposite of what Paul taught. So whether you believe that the "OT" prophets spoke directly from God is irrelevant to my point. The fact remains that Paul's teachings/doctrines about the law can't be found anywhere else in the Bible. He is the odd man out.

 

[Simplelogic]

The point is ultimately always this: trust that the zealousness of the Creator is perfect. He created us, knowing us- because He created all things of Himself and for Himself. No one spontaneously produces knowledge of anything, let alone the kingdom of heaven. Righteousness is given. -- But the perception of man causes him to call himself a god, apart from the Creator. But, contrary to the imperfect perception afforded to all creation (in this case men, especially), there is no free will. All power remains toward One purpose.

Of course men don't spontaneously create anything. Never suggested we did. Righteousness is a human choice to obey the commands of God (which produce righteousness). This is why boasting about being obedient to the law is contrary to the law itself. God is the one who came up with these righteous decrees…not us! Our obedience to those laws in turn make us righteous, because they are the literal definition of righteousness which of course God Himself created.

 

[Simplelogic]

There are many things Paul said that were directed to a specific audience. He was phrasing his words so as to emphasize those portions of the gospel that those particular members of the church needed to hear for their circumstances and their maturity in the gospel. There are things which Paul said to a particular audience that do not necessarily apply to us today. However, there are most definitely aspects of the gospel which are enduring truths. Among these are the truths concerning the relationship of grace and works. In Hebrews, Paul was talking to those members of the church who, being Jewish, were steeped in the Mosaic law and considered that salvation came through the adherence to specified rules (or works)... for example... the law of circumcision. They needed to have emphasized to them the importance of grace.

James on the other hand, in a general epistle to everyone, felt it necessary to emphasize the importance of works... saying in James 2:17-20: "
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The point is that there are works of the law which are applicable to everyone at all times. The works of the law such as loving God, loving one's neighbor, repenting, being baptized and living righteous lives to the end of one's days are necessary before the grace of Jesus will (or can be) applied to save people from (not in) their sins.

So, What Mormons are defending is the concept of the relationship of grace and works together in a covenant relationship with God... that both grace and works are necessary. Works does play a role in our salvation, but... It is the grace of The Messiah, Jesus Christ, His atonement that "justifies" us. But the atonement is not applied to the individual; that is, justification will not be applied, unless and until he demonstrates his desire (through his obedience and his works) to be saved. One may have the desire to be saved, but it will only occur for those who are obedient to the prescribed path ordained of God.

James' letter was a complete rebuke of Paul's specific teachings:


Paul- 2:16; Romans 3:28: Justification is by faith not works of the Law.
James - 2:24: Justification is by works not faith alone

Paul- 3:6; Romans 4:3: Quotes Genesis 15:6, Faith made Abraham right with God.
James- 2:22-23: Quotes Genesis 15:6, his faith and deeds worked together

Paul- 3:20; Romans 3:30: God is one.
James- 2:14-19: You believe God is one, good but even demons believe that!

Paul- 3:23: We were captive under the law.
James- 1:25: The law makes people free

Paul- 5:18, Rom 8:2 & 10:4: We are not under the law.
James- 2:10-13: We will be judged according to the law, but there is mercy for the merciful

Paul- 5:20: God sent the law to increase sin
7 5: law works in our members to bring sin and death
Paul- 7:7, not know to covet had law not told me not to covet
1 Cor. 15:56 "sinful passions...[are] coming into active exercise through the law" (Tischendorf interpretation); literally,
"the strength of sin is the law" (KJV / NIV)
James- 1:13-15: God tempts no one. Desire causes sin which causes death

Paul- 5:10-12 The one troubling you will bear the penalty, no matter who he is
James- 4:11: He who judges his brother, judges the law

Paul- 1:12-16, 2 Cor.12:1-7 Paul did not learn from the other apostles but by direct revelation from Christ above
James3:14-15: If you are jealous & ambitious, do not boast & lie. This isn't the wisdom that comes down from above.

Paul- 1:20 "before God, I do not lie!"
James- 5:12 Do not Swear by heaven or earth, but let your "yes" be yes and your "no" be no

Paul- 1Cor 9:15, 2 Cor 10:14-15, 11:21-23, 2 Cor 12:11-12, Phil 3:8-9, I Thes 2:7-12
James- 3:5: Don't Boast!

Paul- 1:8-9: Paul curses the one preaching "a different Gospel"
James- 3:9: Don't curse!

 

[Simplelogic]

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 - Paul's phrase for "works of the law" in the Greek is "ergon nomou" which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent ("hrvt ysm") meaning "deeds of the law," or Mosaic law. James in James 2 does not use "ergon nomou." He uses "ergois agathois." (good works)Therefore, Paul’s "works of the law" and James' "works" are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

Worst argument ever. To suggest "good works" are somehow different from the Law of Moses is patently absurd and only shows how little you have studied the actual law of Moses. There is no mention of "ceremonial law" in the text, nor was this ever even a distinction in the Law like this. It is one comprehensive law structure. You can't create a fake label for parts of it and label it "ceremonial" in order to salvage Paul's convoluted logic.

 

[Sleeppy]

Of course men don't spontaneously create anything. Never suggested we did. Righteousness is a human choice to obey the commands of God (which produce righteousness). This is why boasting about being obedient to the law is contrary to the law itself. God is the one who came up with these righteous decrees…not us! Our obedience to those laws in turn make us righteous, because they are the literal definition of righteousness which of course God Himself created.

Obedience is not spontaneous, either. Righteousness is not a choice; it is an inheritance. Power apart from God, to choose, doesn't exist beyond localized, imperfect perception.

If the opposite were true, there would be grounds to boast, because there would be a localized accomplishment (a choice), apart from God's power and knowledge. It's nonsensical.