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Paul vs "the law" (can humans earn righteousness?)

leibowde84

leibowde84

Veteran Member
BenTheBeliever said:
It is not about being good. This idea that being good can get you into Heaven is a fable IMO. If being good does that then we would not need salvation. Yet we do need it.
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So says scripture, but why does it make sense that belief would be required for anything? It seems immoral on God's part, as we are all not born into situations where that expectation is at all reasonable.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
leibowde84 said:
I am aware of what is claimed in the Bible by Paul, a man who never even met Jesus. We are discussing our own beliefs as to the nature of God and "the Kingdom".
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Actually we are talking about personal beliefs based on the Bible. Not just personal beliefs. I'm not suggesting I personally agree with Paul, actually I detest Paul's doctrines.
 
leibowde84

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Simplelogic said:
Belief itself is an interesting word which means different things to different types of Christians. Some believe you have to believe that Jesus is God and this alone is what transfers Jesus' righteousness to the individual. Others believe you also have to "believe" in the virgin birth as well as the trinity concept to truly be "saved", while others maintain you must believe in the death and resurrection. Many Christians believe you have to "believe" all of these concepts about Jesus. Most Christians have kept some form of the Nicene creed as the bedrock for their faith.

It is obvious that in Christian logic, salvation is fully dependent on exactly how one characterizes the nature God Himself, as well as Jesus. So basically its about who has the right theology or formula. It should be painfully obvious that this criteria for determining who has eternal salvation is an extremely bigoted and unjust concept. This places human salvation on the intellectual level and requires humans to be able to grasp a "concept" in order to be redeemed. Not to mention the fact that the vast majority of humans on this planet have no idea about these concepts at all! In the Christian psyche it doesn't matter in the end. The world is doomed and the billions of people who are ignorant of these concepts and guaranteed to spend eternity in hell for their lack of knowledge. Even though it is easy to see just how unjust this elitist form of salvation really is it seems that most Christians are fine with following a God who tortures humans forever on account of a religious technicality that only a small fraction of the world is even aware of.
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See, that's what I have a problem with. I can't envision Jesus being petty enough to demand belief in his divinity for him to provide righteousness. I am no saint, but I feel like even if I was in Jesus' shoes, I wouldn't hold belief against anyone. As long as you have an open mind and strive to live a decent, generous, and fulfilling life, righteousness will be achieved.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
leibowde84 said:
See, that's what I have a problem with. I can't envision Jesus being petty enough to demand belief in his divinity for him to provide righteousness. I am no saint, but I feel like even if I was in Jesus' shoes, I wouldn't hold belief against anyone. As long as you have an open mind and strive to live a decent, generous, and fulfilling life, righteousness will be achieved.
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Thats actually what Jesus literally taught. Funny how few can see it.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
leibowde84 said:
Honestly, I think Paul did a great deal of harm to the teachings of Jesus. Not a fan.
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Nor am I. Its almost as if all of Jesus' teachings and parables are either irrelevant to Christians or watered down to make room for Paul's "mental belief" doctrines. I guess it begs the question…"what does it mean to follow Jesus?". Does it mean to live like him and do what he did or does it mean to simply believe in him in some theological way? What if "following Jesus" means one must give up the exclusive salvation theology (faith alone) and actually change our behavior?
 
R

Ron Hackel

Member
Following Jesus is doing as he did. Jesus showed the true character of God. 1 PETER 2:9 shows what was expected of his disciples in following Jesus. It is NOT about your moral conduct. As Paul inferred many times it is mental thing. RIGHTEOUSNESS is believing in a loving God and not your moral behavior. So obviously we CAN ALL become righteous. For a meaning on righteous read Romans 3 :9-12. No human was righteous before Jesus because no one believed in a loving God. Everyone sacrificed to appease their gods. Paul said both the Jews and Gentiles were under sin. If you go to Psalm 78:32 you'll see what the Jews sin was.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Ron Hackel said:
Following Jesus is doing as he did. Jesus showed the true character of God. 1 PETER 2:9 shows what was expected of his disciples in following Jesus. It is NOT about your moral conduct. As Paul inferred many times it is mental thing. RIGHTEOUSNESS is believing in a loving God and not your moral behavior. So obviously we CAN ALL become righteous. For a meaning on righteous read Romans 3 :9-12. No human was righteous before Jesus because no one believed in a loving God. Everyone sacrificed to appease their gods. Paul said both the Jews and Gentiles were under sin. If you go to Psalm 78:32 you'll see what the Jews sin was.
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Actually God Himself declared numerous men were righteous before Jesus.

BTW. Jesus "did" the Torah…so if we are following Jesus we are keeping the law of Moses.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Nakosis said:
Fine for me. For some reason folks assume he has some authority other than being a church leader.
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I believe authority does not guarantee autheniticity. I believe even if Paul didn't have the Holy Spirit and the evidence is not there to say he didn't, the logic of what Jesus had to say leads to the conclusion that Paul has reached.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Muffled said:
I believe authority does not guarantee autheniticity. I believe even if Paul didn't have the Holy Spirit and the evidence is not there to say he didn't, the logic of what Jesus had to say leads to the conclusion that Paul has reached.
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Not saying your are wrong but the NT is such a hodge-podge collection of stories it is difficult to be certain of the underlining meaning of a particular gospel. Whereas if I take a book from the OT, I can usually be fairly certain of it's intent.

There is a element of indeterminism in the gospel stories that allows for subjective interpretation. So while I'm sure you are certain, someone else with a differing interpretation can be just as certain.
 
leibowde84

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Ron Hackel said:
Following Jesus is doing as he did. Jesus showed the true character of God. 1 PETER 2:9 shows what was expected of his disciples in following Jesus. It is NOT about your moral conduct. As Paul inferred many times it is mental thing. RIGHTEOUSNESS is believing in a loving God and not your moral behavior. So obviously we CAN ALL become righteous. For a meaning on righteous read Romans 3 :9-12. No human was righteous before Jesus because no one believed in a loving God. Everyone sacrificed to appease their gods. Paul said both the Jews and Gentiles were under sin. If you go to Psalm 78:32 you'll see what the Jews sin was.
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Don't you think it's ironic that, in response to our distrust of Paul's definition of "righteousness", you quoted Paul's very definition of the word? That is an illustration of the issue at hand. It seems that Paul's idea of righteousness differed a great deal from Jesus'. Which, should come as no surprise, as Paul never once met the living Jesus, and his claim of a "vision" was shaky at best.
 
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