Paul's view of women

[Saint Frankenstein]

What the Christian Scriptures say about Women's Ordination

It's just a product of that time and culture and has nothing to do with us today.

 

[Pegg]

In 1 Cor. 13:34, 35 we read "the women should keep silent in the congregations. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak "
In Galatians 3:28 it says " There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
If I'm not mistaken, both were written by Paul. Maybe there is some specific context I'm not aware of, but I find it very confusing that the same person would write verses that downgrade women so much and also write a verse saying God doesn't make a difference between male and female.
Which one is valid?

they are both valid.

In the first, Paul is discussing leadership or headship within a congregation setting.
In the second, he is discussing mankind in general...all are equal in Gods eyes.

Basically, women are not to be leaders of a congregation because that is not their role. She is not exercise authority. God has chosen men to lead and made it binding on them to do so.
Women were never given such instructions to be leaders of Gods sheep because they are the sheep.

 

[SkylarHunter]

they are both valid.

In the first, Paul is discussing leadership or headship within a congregation setting.
In the second, he is discussing mankind in general...all are equal in Gods eyes.

Basically, women are not to be leaders of a congregation because that is not their role. She is not exercise authority. God has chosen men to lead and made it binding on them to do so.
Women were never given such instructions to be leaders of Gods sheep because they are the sheep.

In Corinthians Paul says that women can't speak, it doesn't talk about leadership, at least not clearly.
I've been to JW's meetings and I heard women making comments. How does that work if Paul said women wouldn't be aloud to speak?
Also, he said they should go home and ask their husbands, but not all women have husbands. What about the ones who don't?

 

[Pegg]

In Corinthians Paul says that women can't speak, it doesn't talk about leadership, at least not clearly.
I've been to JW's meetings and I heard women making comments. How does that work if Paul said women wouldn't be aloud to speak?

Paul was talking about exercising authority in teaching. He wasn't saying women shouldnt speak.

When sisters answer questions at out meetings, we are expressing what we've learned from the teachings we've been studying. We are not presenting our own teachings.

Also, he said they should go home and ask their husbands, but not all women have husbands. What about the ones who don't?

and this is a good reason to conclude that Paul is not saying that women should not speak. The passage of scripture is about who should take the lead in teaching a congregation... who should have the authority to teach.

women are to be subject to their husbands. Husbands are to be subject to Jesus. Jesus is to be subject to God.

there is a requirement that we accept our role as assigned by God. Womens role is not to be leading a congregation...its as simple as that.

 

[McNap]

Interesting point of view. I never considered it from that angle. Do you think his words applied to married women only?

I can't find a connection between married and saved. What does one have to do with the other?

Yes I think his words applied to married women only. He means they have plenty of time to ask their husbands at home. The whole chapter is about speaking unknown languages and prophesying, so I assume their husbands are prophets.

Both being married and being saved are a sign of God's glory. Peter calls it witnessing with no words (see below).
I also believe I can save an atheistic girl simply by staying married to her for life (see 1 Cor. 7:12-16). If she loves me, she's unconsciously loving the holy spirit that lives inside of me (1 Cor. 6:19).

Peter says the following about married girls:

1 In the same way you wives must submit yourselves to your husbands, so that if any of them do not believe God's word, your conduct will win them over to believe. It will not be necessary for you to say a word,
2 because they will see how pure and reverent your conduct is. (1 Peter 3:1-2)
Reverence for God that is, since God is the one that made Peter write it down.

 

[james2ko]

1Ti 2:8-12 In every place of worship, I want men to pray with holy hands lifted up to God, free from anger and controversy. 9 And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes. 10 For women who claim to be devoted to God should make themselves attractive by the good things they do.11 Women should learn quietly and submissively. 12 I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly (NLT)

 

[SkylarHunter]

women are to be subject to their husbands. Husbands are to be subject to Jesus. Jesus is to be subject to God.

there is a requirement that we accept our role as assigned by God. Womens role is not to be leading a congregation...its as simple as that.

Glad I'm not married

I don't want a leadership position anywhere so personally that doesn't bother me, but I have to admit the way organized religions discriminate women always put me off. It makes me sad so see that in this day and age people are still valuing someone else based on their anatomy instead of looking at knowledge and skills.

 

[SkylarHunter]

1Ti 2:8-12 I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly (NLT)

Men have been ruling the world for a long time. Just look at the crime rates, wars, economic problems and polution levels and you have a clear picture of the fantastic leaders men are...:clap

 

[Draupadi]

they are both valid.

In the first, Paul is discussing leadership or headship within a congregation setting.
In the second, he is discussing mankind in general...all are equal in Gods eyes.

Basically, women are not to be leaders of a congregation because that is not their role. She is not exercise authority. God has chosen men to lead and made it binding on them to do so.
Women were never given such instructions to be leaders of Gods sheep because they are the sheep.

Wasn't Deborah a female prophet and a judge over the Israelites?

 

[sojourner]

1Ti 2:8-12 In every place of worship, I want men to pray with holy hands lifted up to God, free from anger and controversy. 9 And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes. 10 For women who claim to be devoted to God should make themselves attractive by the good things they do.11 Women should learn quietly and submissively. 12 I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly (NLT)

Ancient, Androcentric horse crap that needs a serious second look.

 

[metis]

Paul was talking about exercising authority in teaching. He wasn't saying women shouldnt speak.

When sisters answer questions at out meetings, we are expressing what we've learned from the teachings we've been studying. We are not presenting our own teachings...

and this is a good reason to conclude that Paul is not saying that women should not speak. The passage of scripture is about who should take the lead in teaching a congregation... who should have the authority to teach.
Womens role is not to be leading a congregation...its as simple as that.

Sorry, but you're playing fast and loose with scripture here:

I Timorthy 2 [11] Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness.
[12] I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
[13] For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
[14] and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor...

Also, do the women keep their heads covered? Meet each other with a "holy kiss"?

 

[fantome profane]

1Ti 2:8-12 In every place of worship, I want men to pray with holy hands lifted up to God, free from anger and controversy. 9 And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes. 10 For women who claim to be devoted to God should make themselves attractive by the good things they do.11 Women should learn quietly and submissively. 12 I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly (NLT)

First Timothy is one of the books in the NT that is widely believed to be a forgery.

 

[metis]

First Timothy is one of the books in the NT that is widely believed to be a forgery.

Gotta be careful with that. Back then in eretz Israel, it was not unusual for a disciple to write what his teacher taught him and then give credit to the teacher by using his name. This was done also to give credibility to what he wrote.

 

[Ingledsva]

Sorry, but you're playing fast and loose with scripture here:

I Timorthy 2 [11] Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness.
[12] I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
[13] For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
[14] and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor...

Also, do the women keep their heads covered? Meet each other with a "holy kiss"?

I just look at that - "I" - and toss the crap as his personal opinion, and the prejudice of the time; and NOT the teaching of Jesus.


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[Pegg]

Sorry, but you're playing fast and loose with scripture here:

I Timorthy 2 [11] Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness.
[12] I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
[13] For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
[14] and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor...

Also, do the women keep their heads covered? Meet each other with a "holy kiss"?

The pattern of leadership provided by God from the beginning was that men were given authority to teach.

Who were the elders & shephards of isreal? Men or Women?

Who was the high priest? a man or woman?

Was it a man or woman who led Isreal out of Egypt?


When we look in the scriptures we can clearly see Gods preference for men to be the ones with authority. Why would we argue with Gods arrangement?

 

[Pegg]

I just look at that - "I" - and toss the crap as his personal opinion, and the prejudice of the time; and NOT the teaching of Jesus.


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How many women did Jesus select to be his 12 apostles?

 

[Pegg]

Wasn't Deborah a female prophet and a judge over the Israelites?

Yes she was a prophet and was used by God to give reassurance of a victory. And because she was a prophet, the Israelites would seek her assistance in solving their legal disputes with one another.

But she wasn't a priest with authority to teach and she never did that. She wasn't the only woman prophet either.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Context heavily affects the meaning of the text. 1 Timothy 2:11 is using the submission of women in the temple, as the example for the entire church to use for itself, The Bride of Christ, everywhere. The church is the 'Woman' being discussed in this chapter. For those unacquainted with this concept in 1Timothy chapter 2:, the writer enters a mixed mode where he is extending the concept of Temple to something worldwide, and he is talking about the church, the Bride of Christ. He uses women as the model for his discussion about the bride, and his main point is to stop arguing about things. Conceptually the church is the woman. In the church both men and women should be meek, busy, not given to arguing about things, modest. They should ask the husband 'Jesus Christ' their questions in private. His many allusions to the Temple to behaviors performed in the Temple and rules about the Temple help to show that he is talking about the big picture, all of the Christians, even though he uses men and women as examples. Recall that one of Paul's biggest problems with the churches, particularly the Corinthians, was that they kept dividing into factions. He was still addressing that issue.

Spoiler: Bride, Isaiah 56, Paul's Larger Temple concept

verse 1 "that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people" alludes to Isaiah 56:7 The Temple is to become a house of prayer for all of the nations. The people in the temple of Isaiah 56 offer prayer for all of the nations not just for Israel, proper. The prayers passed down to pray for Israel will become larger in scope.

verse 2 "that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness." In other words, 'We' is the church, the woman of concern.

verse 4 "...wants all people to be saved...." not just a subset of people...emphasises the temple was always intended to be a blessing to everyone eventually

verse 5 "For there is one God and one mediator..." in other words not one for Jews and one for Gentiles

verse 6 "a ransom for all people" Extending the concept of redemption to gentiles

verse 8 "I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing" note the emphasis is against anger and disputing and instead holding up the hands. Holding up holy hands is something done in the temple, but he is expanding the concept of temple to the entire world. His emphasis is upon "Peace on Earth, good will toward (humankind)" What does holding up hands mean in a combative context? Surrender might be what it means.

verse 9 " also want the women to dress modestly" as is done in the temple. Point of Law, "Build no steps up to my altar", this verse is referring to the principle of modesty in and around the altar. the concept extends to spiritual modesty for the church as a whole

 

[Ingledsva]

How many women did Jesus select to be his 12 apostles?

First off we don't know that he didn't - there seems to be some controversy about that.


It very specifically tells us that women funded him, and followed him.


However - if we take this story as true - what would he have accomplished in an extremely patriarchal land, by having his main apostles female?


Could they have been sent off to other lands to teach?


We know the Bible lists female apostles, and Church leaders.


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[Pegg]

First off we don't know that he didn't - there seems to be some controversy about that.

It very specifically tells us that women funded him, and followed him.

the gospel writers do name each of the 12 apostles, so i dont believe there is any controversy.

Women were very much apart of their preaching group and the gospel writers tell us that women were ministering to Jesus. So if they were comfortable with writing about womens involvement with Jesus ministry, then surely if any had been a selected apostles, they would have also been named as such.
It was a public ministry afterall, so it would have been public knowledge anyway and therefore no need to hide the fact.

However - if we take this story as true - what would he have accomplished in an extremely patriarchal land, by having his main apostles female?

if you want to look at it purely from that angle, is it really any different today?

We had our very first female prime minister here in Australia and she was hounded out of office by men who just continually critisized her and put her down. Eventually she lost the public's support.

Just look at any women in the public eye... the media are always nitpicking them. I dont believe that men in todays world actually respect women very much at all. And im sure it was the same back then too.

Could they have been sent off to other lands to teach?

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women were ministers in the congregations supporting the preaching work and supporting the congregations. Paul mentions them even by name as 'those working hard in the Lord'

Romans 16:1  I am introducing to you Phoe′be, our sister, who is a minister of the congregation that is in Cen′chre·ae, 2 so that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the holy ones and give her whatever help she may need, for she herself also proved to be a defender of many, including me.12 Greet Try·phae′na and Try·pho′sa, women who are working hard in the Lord. Greet Per′sis, our beloved one, for she has worked hard in the Lord.

What were these women doing that Paul gave them commendation and instructed the congregation to 'assist' them in 'any way she may need' ?

Obviously Pauls words about remaining 'silent' doesnt mean what people seem to think they mean.