james2ko
Well-Known Member
It's unfortunate but sometimes we have to speak to the likes of ING, who are against us (Mat 12:30), like Elijah spoke to the prophets of Baal in 1 Ki 18, and Jesus spoke to the Pharisees.
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Paul's view of women
- Thread starter SkylarHunter
- Start date
It's unfortunate but sometimes we have to speak to the likes of ING, who are against us (Mat 12:30), like Elijah spoke to the prophets of Baal in 1 Ki 18, and Jesus spoke to the Pharisees.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Just more red-herring bull on your part.
Let us go back to our discussion and you try to prove me wrong!
You can't - which is why you are tossing out red-herrings.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
LOL! Are you speaking to yourself?
And what makes you think I am against you?
We are having a debate, nothing more.
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james2ko
Well-Known Member
You brought up the YHVH to Lord translation, which has nothing to do with Paul's view of women, then you turn around and have the gall to accuse me of "more red herring bull" for responding to it?? LOL!
Sure thing. The very beginning of the sacred text in front of me states Paul is the ultimate author of Timothy and Titus--so that right there proves you wrong (that was easy). All you have are liberal speculations and opinions attempting to dismiss, discredit, and twist Paul's writings which was happening way back in Peter's day. So you bring nothing new to the table but regurgitated claims. The burden of proof is actually on you. Where in the text does it specifically state Paul was not the ultimate author? Go ahead and try to prove me wrong---You can't!! Which is why you are forced to dismiss the text, its authorship and continue to make a spectacle of your distorted thinking.
"Speaking to myself" would entail quoting myself and posting a reply to myself. I quoted Peter Waldo so I'm obviously speaking to him. But I'm sure your twisted logic has somehow redefined the term..LOL! Yet another example of your busted logic which continues to diminish your credibility and place a big question mark behind every word you type, right down to your incessant LOL.....
Alt Thinker
Older than the hills
Not quite right on either side.
When Jewish scriptures were read aloud, Adonai (Lord) was said when YHVH was encountered. In addition to this showing respect, it avoided the awkward question of how one pronounces YHWH, the associated vowels being unknown. Most versions of the Greek Septuagint version of the Jewish scriptures substituted kyrios (lord) for YHWH. The word Lord for God was in use before the time of Jesus.
English language Bibles tend to put LORD all in caps when YHVH appears in the original or kyrios if the original is Greek. The word God is used when Elohim or one of its variants appears in the original.
The Masoretic texts do not substitute Adonai for YHVH. Rather they apply the vowel markings for Adonai when YHVH is encountered as a reminder to say Adonai. Vowel markings for Hebrew were then a fairly recent innovation. Legend has it that trying to pronounce this consonant/vowel compound is the origin of the word Jehovah. (German has no Y, the letter J serving that purpose.)
jtartar
Well-Known Member
In 1 Cor. 13:34, 35 we read "the women should keep silent in the congregations. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak "
In Galatians 3:28 it says " There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
If I'm not mistaken, both were written by Paul. Maybe there is some specific context I'm not aware of, but I find it very confusing that the same person would write verses that downgrade women so much and also write a verse saying God doesn't make a difference between male and female.
Which one is valid?
SkylarHinter,
Everything Paul wrote cMe directly from Jesus, himself, by revelation, Gal 1:11?12. The Bible also tells us that the writers were borne along by The Holy Spirit as they spoke, 2Pet 1:20,21. Paul says also that all scripture is inspired by God, and is good for teaching, correction, for instruction, so that the man of God is completely equipped for every good work, 2 Tim 3:16,17.
Every thing written in a The Bible is accurate, so of you question what The Bible says, you have a lack of knowledge, and it would be a lot safer to study The Scriptures so that you see that they are all in harmony: Intertextuality means that all scripture is related to all other scripture.
Paul never speaks against women! When Paul says that a woman is not to speak in the congregation, he is saying that a woman is not authorized to teach a Brother in the Faith, or to question him in public, as this would go against the precept that the man is head of the woman, just as Jesus is head of the man, 1Cor 11:2,3. There were conditions that were to be followed within the Congregation, and everyone must abide by them, 1cor 11:4-16.
These scriptures written at 1Tim 2:9-15, and 1Cor 14:33-35. These things kept order within the Congregation, so that there would not be any kind of arguments in the congregations, so The WAY would not be spoken of in a bad way.
Paul never said anything against women, and all the women of his day knew what Paul was talking about. Paul also it would be better never to touch a woman, that it would be better it all men were as he was, and had control over their emotions so that there whole attention would be on teaching The a Gospel, because when a person is married he has to worry about his wife, and not be completely for The Lord. Read the 7th Chapter of 1Cor.
Paul spoke well in the scriptures about some women, which he knew their names would be in the Bible for all time, Phil 4:1-3., Rom 16:1-3. At he end of Paul's letters he gives salutations to many sisters in the Faith.
Paul loved everyone!!! Paul would not water down the instructions he received from Jesus, and neither should we!!
jtartar
Well-Known Member
fantôme profane;3889254 said:
Fantome,
God has promised to protect His word from all generations, Ps 12:6,7. Think!!!
If God allowed His word to become adulterated, corrupted, it would NOT be His word at all, Isa 40:8, 1Per 1:25, 2Tim 316,17, 2Pet 1:20,21. Of God allowed His word to become corrupted, how could He ever judge the world by His word???Rom 3:5,6.
Now, this does not mean that every Bible is without errors, but it does mean that, by far the majority of Bibles are accurate, and any inconsistencies can easily be found by a comparison of Bibles, because all Bibles will not have the same mistakes.
Everyone can have complete confidence in the truth of their Bible, and surely of the message go God to man. The important thing for Allison to learn what God has had written for our instruction!!!
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Not so sure about that:
The Dead Sea Scrolls
The DSS predates the MT by approximately 1,000 years. As one can plainly see, the DSS utilizes "YHVH" while the MT currently uses Adonai in Isa 7:14. There are 134 other instances where this occurs. The Masoretes definitely substituted YHVH with adonai. So let us get back to the topic under discussion.
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You are talking to someone who does not believe any of this is the "word of God". So what is your point? We know that much of the New Testament has been altered, things have been added, parts have been edited out, things have been changed.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
LOL! Sure it does. Go back - quote something I actually said - and what I was actually replying to - then - prove your words! Show where I am wrong!
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Alt Thinker
Older than the hills
Not so sure about that:
The Dead Sea Scrolls
The DSS predates the MT by approximately 1,000 years. As one can plainly see, the DSS utilizes "YHVH" while the MT currently uses Adonai in Isa 7:14. There are 134 other instances where this occurs. The Masoretes definitely substituted YHVH with adonai. So let us get back to the topic under discussion.
From the Jewish Encyclopedia entry on Adonai.
CMike
Well-Known Member
How do you win a debate here, you rarely change anyone's mind?The reality is you have not won this debate, or any that I have read in which you are debating. And that indeed can be seen by anyone reading these debates.
You just flop out text, and we are supposed to believe it. It doesn't work that way. We dig into the original languages, and colloquialisms, and culture, etc.
It also sometimes becomes apparent that there are problems, - when the text is put back in original order.
It is a BIG problem when Christian translators turn YHVH into Lord, to make verses sound like they mesh into NT "Lord Jesus" verses.
There are a lot of problems with our translated texts.
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Alt Thinker
Older than the hills
The effect on bystanders might be more than you realize. Plus it forces you to make sure you know what you are talking about.
Fun too... :angel2:
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Actually I've been told by multiple people here - that I've changed their mind, or made them realize there is a different way of looking at a text.
In fact I've been asked to send any more information that I might have on a subject, by multiple people.
The idea here is to successfully counter, stick-in-the-mud traditionalists, with different information, showing that there are alternate translations, and ideas as to what Biblical scripture actually says.
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Hmm really? I mean, you actually argued with me about my own stated beliefs, and when I showed the obvious 'Elohim' referring to 'gods' as opposed to all the Christian scholarly opinion (they thought it was referring to men), you didn't accept the obvious truth.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Not sure what you are talking about here.
It can be used for both Gods, and men.
I've put up multiple posts showing that Elohiym means Gods, Magistrates, Kings, Princes, Priests, etc.
I even included these - both discussing "Elohiym."
"Psa 82:1 Standeth - To observe all that is said or done there. Mighty - Kings or chief rulers. By their congregation he understands all persons whatsoever of this high and sacred order. Judgeth - Passes sentence upon them. The gods - Judges and magistrates are called gods, because they have their commission from God, and act as his deputies." -John Wesley's Explanatory notes.
"he judgeth among the gods: which the Syriac version renders "angels" again; and so Aben Ezra interprets it of them, who are so called, Psa_8:5, but rather civil magistrates are meant, the rulers and judges of the people, who go by this name of "elohim", or gods, in Exo_21:6, and are so called because they are the powers ordained of God, are representatives of him, are his vicegerents and deputies under him; should act in his name, according to his law, and for his glory, and are clothed with great power and authority from and under him; and therefore are before styled the "mighty". - John Gill's Exposition of the entire Bible.
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
That's clearly wrong, those scholars didn't like the idea of 'other gods', being mentioned in the Bible, but they are, it's poetic, it never meant 'worship other gods' etc.
Shuttlecraft
.Navigator
In 1 Cor. 13:34, 35 we read "the women should keep silent in the congregations. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak "
In Galatians 3:28 it says " There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
..Which one is valid?
Think CONTEXT!
No doubt some noisy chatterbox women were disrupting the early churches by using them as drop-in centres for games of bingo or whatever and henpecking their hubs, so of course Paul had to tell them to shut it, wouldn't you?..
He had no beef at all with sensible women and paid them great compliments like-
"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea..she has been a great help to many people, including me..
Greet Priscilla , my fellow worker in Christ Jesus, she risked her life for me.
Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you..
Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa and Persis, those women who work hard in the Lord.
Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too.
Greet Julia.." (Romans ch 16)
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
No it isn't wrong, and you are clearly twisting what was said. It obviously also means people, as Jesus and Tanakh both use it that way.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said, you are Theos (gods)?
He was referring to -
Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are Elohiym (gods,) And all of you are the sons of the Most High."
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
We're off topic, but that again is not the same as saying that God is 'among' the judges and magistrates' ruling, that's ridiculous, and judges and magistrates were never given 'god status' among the Hebrews, again a complete misinterpretation by those scholars.
What Jesus was referencing is clearly poetic, it means the high status of the people it is referring to, but not god status.
This sort of bad interpretation is because meaning is being induced from text without a framework of the theology. God does not sit among a council of men, period, men are not that high in status.
context context context. if men are being referenced as gods, notice how it is said so, it is not something you have to 'deduce'. If man is not mentioned in conjunction with "gods", it means 'gods' or angels.
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