Peace & Security or Sudden Destruction?

[Oeste]

Doesn't sound like something I would say.
I never heard any JW refer to anyone on earth as their leader. Christ? Yes. Men? No.

You are too funny nPeace! So you have no leaders in your congregation! Why? Because they’re not called “leaders”!

It’s the same “reason” you have no clergy…because they’re not called priests or reverends. Overseers? Sure. Elders? Of course. Pioneers? You betcha! But we ain’t got no human leaders!

But I noticed your response does not address my main point, that a “New System” before the 1914 generation expired was “the truth”, falsely testified and verified by His “Witnesses” for decades. We told you this stuff wasn't true, yet your Organization became obstinate, doing everything possible to tie Jehovah with this error and bring reproach from door to door worldwide. And even now, having recognized this human error that you once claimed was Jehovah's, your Organization refuses to apologize and repent. So you testified falsely to God and Christ, yet deem your own Organization "clean".

So you are saying you have a plank in your eye.

Most certainly I do.

How nice of you to admit it.

Thank you.

Ah. Here we go again. Let's dig up another bone for our agenda. <shaking my head>
This distraction is worn out. Next.

It’s not just a “distraction” but an obvious embarrassment for the WT. For decades we heard how the 1914 generation was “marked” in scripture. You even put this “distraction” into Jehovah’s mouth!

And now, like a magician, the sole earthly Organization able to "channel" truth from Jehovah today, wants us to"fawgetaboutit" and move on to their next distraction? Why can’t your Organization simply apologize for their prior false prophecies made in God’s name and repent? Why would that be difficult for the" humble men" you proclaim?

Ah But wait... You can find articles which go all the way back to 1920, and you can't find those?

I can’t find apologies that aren’t there. You can’t find them either…for the exact same reason.

Ah Perhaps the plank is too large Oeste. Extracting it might help.

But I’m not the one who came up with your false prophecies. Neither am I the one who suggested going “door to door” proclaiming false prophecies in Jehovah’s Name.

Until your Organization apologizes and repents their sin remains.

Ah Please, don't be so vague. Give me an example, so that I know what you are talking about.

I’ve already posted plenty of examples like the “Creator’s promise” that you’ve ducked and dodged and have no reasonable explanation for. As such your unrepentant “clean and undefiled” Watchtower, the alleged home of “true worship” remains in its sin.

Huh?

Honestly, I think you’re the only one here who didn’t understand the analogy.

You claim the Governing Board was not perfect. They are “fallible”. Well so was Moses, and when he went beyond what God ordered him to do he lost the right to lead Israel into the promised land. Likewise, when your Governing Board went beyond anything Jehovah told them and put a lie about 1914 into His mouth, we can reasonably infer they lost any perceived right to lead the Earth into the “New System”.

It's not the "fallibility" of the person we look for nPeace, it's the "fallibility" of the message.

Ah Cool. Whom did they apologize to?
If you answer, "Jehovah", we agree.

If that’s all you do, then we don’t agree. There is an important biblical concept involved that’s apparently not taught in the Kingdom Halls. See Matthew 5:24.

Also, David apologized to God before all of Israel. How do we know? Because I can pick up a bible and read about it. It was recorded. Now please…tell us where we can read about your Organization’s apology to Jehovah. I’m sure they followed David’s example, right?

Of course not…that would be wrong. We can’t read about it because it never happened. Too humble perhaps.

How can you tell that they love the Lord? Is it not by their willingness to obey God's word, come what may?
So does that not involve obeying such scriptures as 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 and 2 Corinthians 6:14-18?

Good point!

1 Corinthians 5:11 tells us not to associate with slanderers, which is what a false prophet is.

2 Corinthians 6:17 warns against touching unclean things, and your false pronouncement of the “Creator’s promise” and “1914” were certainly unclean utterances.

In short, neither of these scriptures recommends turning a blind eye to false prophesy.

We can't pick and choose which instructions are easier for us to carry out, and then say that we love the Lord. That would be lying, would it not? Jesus said, “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. ..." Matthew 7:21.

Was it the will of God to go "door to door" spreading lies about His word? Is it His will now that we be unrepentant about past sins? Why does your Governing Board insist members be ready to perform tasks they're not willing to do themselves, like apologize and repent? Are they really that "humble"???

Yes. According to Jesus, we show that we love the Lord, by keeping his commandment, which includes preaching the message of good news of God's kingdom.
(John 14:15) . . .“If you love me, you will observe my commandments.
(John 8:31) . . .“If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples,

Did the “good news of God’s kingdom” include the “Creator’s promise” regarding the generation of 1914 ? How about 1975? Was the "remaining few months before Armageddon" a commandment in 1940? Was preaching a resurrection in 1925 the way Christians "remain in the word"?

Of course not. All of these were false prophesies given in the name of the Lord.

In the Old Testament, false prophets were stoned as blasphemers. Of course, Christians do not stone false prophets now, but then we're not asked to follow them when they knock on our door either.

Remember this article in 1972 (still present in a modified form at JW.org)?:

The only thing "they" know, based on your Organization's prophetic history, is that the testimony of this prophet has been consistently false.It is as scripture states:
"Let God be true, and every human being a liar." Romans 3:4.

It is truly unfortunate that your Organization mixed the word of God with their own, but it's a relatively simple fix. All it would take is the Governing Board to state their remorse, issue an apology and repent, the very same thing your Organization asks it's own members to do when they sin. They could then proceed with a biblical message about the coming judgement without the dates, finger pointing, and hubris. But it appears too many Witnesses take too much pride in their Governing Board so such a course would never be considered.

And getting back to thread theme, God does not curse peace makers, and that was the purpose of the League and now the United Nations. Yes, the United Nations has not brought world peace, but they only promised to work towards peace, not bring it. In this, the UN has been largely successful.

Again, it's unfortunate that the Watchtower has confused the United Nations' purpose with some sort of promise. The two words are not the same.

 

[nPeace]

@Oeste there are a few more things you said, which are false, but it's clear to me that you have only one agenda - you've placed your old record on the player, and it' seems broken. "The Watchtower made false prophecies! The Watchtower made false prophecies! The Watchtower made false prophecies!" Over and over again.
I have no interest in listening to your broken record, which is not only pointless, since it has already been addressed, and is also not exactly true..
If you want to keep playing it as your preaching campaign, please be my guest.

Perhaps the Lord will pat you on the back and say, "Well done, good and faithful servant. You were faithful in what is much."
However, you obviously are not repeating it for my sake, so happy proselytizing. So apparently, you won't see it as pointless... of course.

I like listening to a records that plays from the start to finish, and even if it has that ever so slight hiss, at least it's continuous, like those faithfully carrying out the Lord's work of preaching the message of the good news of the kingdom. (Matthew 24:14)
If you believe that your old broken record somehow gives you an escape card,

I encourage you to consider please - this is not a game.

While millions are learning what the Bible teaches, and acting on what they learn - becoming disciples, that is, they in turn share in preaching the message of the good news of the kingdom, and make disciples (Matthew 28:18-20), the handful of apostates, and their associates are stuck on 1925, 1975, 19... - an old broken record.
Not only that, but they search magazines for something to cry about.
...but do they understand what they are crying about? Nope.

 

[nPeace]

No one claims we have fixed all the worlds problems, nor that we don't have much more work to go yet. But when it comes to violence, most of the world has never been more safe and secure. A realistic view includes the data that shows some countries are even enjoying their longest period of border/territory stability. Of course there is still violence and murder, from throughout the East and West your chances of being the victim of violence and being killed in a violent act has never been lower. It could still happen, but it's hardly a doomsday scenario that shows no hope or promise of getting better. It is getting better.

I'm glad for you, that you are not anxious, but please, the statement "most of the world has never been more safe and secure" is not true.
Perhaps you mean since 1914, but the world has felt more safe and secure in the past, than it does today. This is reality... you are probably having a dream, from which you will awaken soon. . Just let me know if you want the data in writing.

In the meantime, here are a few snippets from this article.
Crime is arguably the number one social issue for much of the Caribbean, with its only serious rival being economic development (see World Bank, 2005a).1 Leaders are coming to realize, however, that the two issues are strongly related.
..........
The Caribbean is especially vulnerable to crime for several reasons.
...........
In addition, definitions of crime vary greatly between countries. Even for what seems like an easily defined offense such as murder, definitions vary widely, and crimes like burglary, robbery, and sexual offenses are defined very differently across jurisdictions. These differences are strongest when comparisons are made between entirely different legal traditions, and there are many in the Caribbean. In addition, the point in the criminal justice process when an alleged offense is recorded as a crime differs greatly between countries.
............
To complicate matters further, there are frequently significant discrepancies in crime rates within a country depending on the source of the data. In the case of homicide rates, police and public health data sometimes differ substantially. The case of Guyana is instructive: two different murder counts are published in the same statistical bulletin— one from the police and one from the ministry of health. This difference is not surprising since public health definitions differ from those used in the criminal justice system, but the ratio between the two varies also considerably over time. The public health figures show a clear increasing trend, while the police figures do not (see Figure 1.5).
............
The official crime figures published by national governments are much more problematic. They are generally based on police statistics, and the police figures are largely based on cases that are reported to the police by the public. Unreported cases cannot be recorded, and there is good reason to believe a great deal of crime is not reported in the region. Making comparisons across jurisdictions is even more complicated, because the precise rate of under-reporting varies between countries, and countries where the criminal justice system enjoys a good deal of public confidence tend to have higher rates of reporting. On the other hand, as Chapter 3 shows, it is precisely in the most crime ridden-areas that reporting rates are the lowest.

Crime Rates and Trends in Africa
Official and other statistics show that the crime rate in Africa is high. Of nearly half-a-million homicides committed globally in 2012, only 5% occurred in Europe; 31% occurred in Africa; just next to the Americas’ 36% (UNODC, 2013).

A point to note. Crime comes in numerous forms. A person can be threatened, raped, mugged, and not report it. Does it mean no crime took place? No, and we know this happens every day, don't we?
Here is a list of only, intentional homicide rates.

Another point... conflicting data can place one in dreamland also, since it's not accurately conveying reality.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Perhaps you mean since 1914, but the world has felt more safe and secure in the past, than it does today.

Facts and how people feel do not have to match, and often times they don't.

Another point... conflicting data can place one in dreamland also, since it's not accurately conveying reality.

Or data isn't necessarily conflicting. Here is an example:
https://www.ppic.org/publication/crime-trends-in-california/

California’s violent crime rate rose in 2017—but it remains historically low.
California’s violent crime rate increased by 1.5% in 2017 to 451 per 100,000 residents. There were also upticks in 2012 and from 2015 to 2017, but the statewide rate is still comparable to levels in the late 1960s.

There was crime, there was an uptick in it, but over all it's down and still lower than it has been. That's much of the world. Instead of posting a bunch of links I'll post this next one:
Crime drop - Wikipedia

The crime drop or crime decline is a pattern observed in many countries whereby rates of many types of crime declined by 50% or more beginning in the early 1990s.
In the United States, for example, violent crime rates have fallen by over 50% in many major U.S. cities since these rates peaked in the early 1990s; in New York City, these rates had dropped by 75% from the early 1990s to 2010.[2] In the United States, a second decline in the crime rate was also observed, with homicide rates declining first from 1994 to 2002, and then again from 2007 to 2011.[3] The crime rate in Los Angeles decreased from 1993 onward, including e.g. a decrease in the crime rate of 10% during the first six months of 1998. [4]
On average, international crime declines from 1995 to 2004 were as follows: 77.1 percent in theft from cars, 60.3 percent in theft from person, 26.0 percent in burglary, 20.6 percent in assault and 16.8 percent in car theft.[5] The crime drop since the early 1990s has occurred in many countries, including the United States, the United Kingdom,[6] and New Zealand.[7] However, no overall crime decline occurred in Western Europe during this period.[8]

I'm not denying there is violence. However what I am denying is that it's getting worse. So many people throughout the world, regardless of how they feel, the reality of their situation is they know security, stability, and safety in ways their ancestors never did.

 

[savagewind]

While millions are learning what the Bible teaches, and acting on what they learn - becoming disciples, that is, [COLOR=#b30000][I]they in turn share in preaching the message of the good news of the kingdom, and make disciples[/I] (Matthew 28:18-20),[/COLOR] the handful of apostates, and their associates are stuck on 1925, 1975, 19... - an old broken record.
Not only that, but they search magazines for something to cry about. [URL='http://www.mysmiley.net'][IMG]http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sad/sad0027.gif[/IMG][/URL]
...but do they [I][U]understand[/U][/I] what they are crying about? :( Nope.

It is a FACT that Jehovah's Witnesses are preaching to make disciples of THE WATCHTOWER!

Jesus Christ is NOT the Watchtower.

Kudos for advertising the Bible but you're not helping anyone for Jesus. Don't be surprised if you hear him say to the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, "You never knew me!".

 

[savagewind]

Nobody in their right mind can claim security on this Earth because of the weather, the water, and space. So, whoever will say it isn't right.

Can we analyze who is really saying it, but doesn't know they are?

Maybe there are more, but it is the Jehovah's Witnesses who say it. They say their group is a "spiritual paradise". Paradise is the place of peace and security. They say that if you will just join their group for peace and security and behave like they say you should behave you might have peace and security forever.

Why then is it written that sudden destruction comes upon them who say it?

The problem is that people focus on the word "destruction". That is a mistake. The word to focus on is "sudden".

Think, now!

If destruction came upon a person who believes he or she is living in a spiritual paradise truly for God and Christ but destruction comes, I'm going to tell you the truth, it will be sudden. Why? Because you are taught to believe that it can't happen to you.

The only place that there is real security and ever will be is with God Almighty and God isn't a physical being. God is a spirit.

By the way, Jehovah's Witnesses, you say you are the only ones who are really following Jesus, but you know that Jehovah is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE. So, whenever you follow your governing body when they are wrong about something IT MEANS that you have left Jesus about it. So by them, you are going back and forth from the truth who is Jesus to the lies which are WHO? You tell me!

 

[Oeste]

@Oeste there are a few more things you said, which are false, but it's clear to me that you have only one agenda - you've placed your old record on the player, and it' seems broken. "The Watchtower made false prophecies! The Watchtower made false prophecies! The Watchtower made false prophecies!"

Not only false prophecies, but they made them in Jehovah’s Name, as His Witnesses, as if Jehovah were making these claims Himself.

Over and over again.

Yes, that has been the Watchtower's legacy.

I have no interest in listening to your broken record,

I have no broken record of false prophesies.This is strictly one the Watchtower choreographed, produced and owns. No false prophesies, no broken record.

which is not only pointless, since it has already been addressed, and is also not exactly true.

You’re confusing “addressed” with “ignored”. It will only be addressed when the sin is acknowledged, an apology is issued, and the Watchtower repents. That’s the message I’ve repeated “over and over” again in this thread.

Remember John 6:13:

“However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming.”​

The WT spoke with zealous impulse they claimed was from the Spirit.
.

If you want to keep playing it as your preaching campaign, please be my guest.

Thank you. I believe the call to repentance is an important aspect of any Christian preaching campaign.

He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.(Luke 24: 46-48)​

Perhaps the Lord will pat you on the back and say, "Well done, good and faithful servant. You were faithful in what is much."

Perhaps. Until then I think it wiser for me to look for a seat near the end of the table. (Luke 14:8-10)

However, you obviously are not repeating it for my sake, so happy proselytizing. So apparently, you won't see it as pointless... of course.

My whole point of repeating this over and over is to show how easy it would be to defend the Watchtower if the Governing Board exhibited the same earnest repentance they demand of their members.

Can you imagine the after affect? What would anyone have to say against your Organization if they repented?

Look, Brother Aronson likes to feel important and wanted. He’s told everyone he’s of the “slave class”. Last week he was overheard telling a sister he was working on an important project from Bethel, and the week before that, how he had pioneered in Costa Rica when in fact he had simply been visiting family for the last two months.

His constant “embellishments” to known truths have come to the attention of the Judicial committee but when he’s brought he wells up, cries, confesses his sin, begs forgiveness, and promises not to engage in such behavior again.

Who would not forgive him? And once forgiven, who would constantly bring up his past sins?

That’s the whole point of repeating this stuff over and over again @nPeace. It’s not to shout "The Watchtower ‘s a false prophet!", it’s about the saving power of repentance.

The Worldwide Church of God was once like the Watchtower. They declared themselves the sole purveyors of truth today on the earth. They were the only ones whom God approved. They were the place to find "true worship".

Then they apologized and repented, and nobody has anything bad to say.

While millions are learning what the Bible teaches, and acting on what they learn - becoming disciples, that is, they in turn share in preaching the message of the good news of the kingdom, and make disciples (Matthew 28:18-20),

1914, 1925, 1940 were never part of the preaching message. It was never part nor parcel of the good news and it had nothing to do with the Kingdom of God. As such, why would any disciple of Jesus go door to door preaching something Jesus never asked them to preach?

At all times these "marked dates" were part of the Watchtower's message for the sole purpose of promoting itself as Jehovah's "sole" Organization, clean and undefiled, the home of "true" worship. It was an act and declaration of religious supremacy which many find appealing.

the handful of apostates, and their associates are stuck on 1925, 1975, 19... - an old broken record.

I would agree if we do not learn from the past we are doomed to repeat it. Much of "the truth" published in 1870 was considered heresy by 1920, just as much of heresies published as truth in 1920 were considered apostasies by 1970 and so on. In fact, by 1970 Witnesses mention virtually nothing taught in 1870, just like in 2019 you don't like to mention much of anything published in 1920.

I'm not sure how your Organization can reconcile this with Proverbs 23;23: "Get the truth and never sell it; also get wisdom, discipline, and good judgment."

IMO, Organizations that never seem to "Get the truth" will always "Get a change". Unlike truth, its highly salable.

 

[savagewind]

Security for anyone but Jehovah does not exist. But, someone is teaching that it exists for anyone who will stay faithful to the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Along with the weather, water, and space bodies including the Sun, I forgot the Earth's mantle. So for the physical man security doesn't exist.

But, the Jehovah's Witnesses might say that for them, their eternal righteousness is secure if only they will keep obeying the governing body who by the way, is supposedly going away at the end of the war between right and wrong.

And, they call themselves Bible students. LOL

Think about all the examples in there where faithful men and women went wrong. Adam, Eve, Judas........

 

[savagewind]

Security defined: the state of being free from danger or threat.

 

[savagewind]

Is there a definition of security that I do not know about?

 

[savagewind]

I'll play. What does ἀσφάλεια mean at 1 Thessalonians 5:3?

 

[savagewind]

The only people who are actually ever saying or are going to say "certain safety" are God believers. It's true!

Relative peace is possible. It can happen.

No kind of certain safety is ever possible. Not for an individual, not for a nation and not for the Planet Earth.

Who is putting their faith in impossibilities? Impossible as in only God can do it.

 

[savagewind]

I actually know some Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jehovah will keep them safe from Earth's natural events. What "World leader" can promise that? What "World leader" can promise safety from nuclear reactions? What "World leader" can promise safety from insurrection? What "World leader" can promise safety from accident and sickness? Earthquakes.....wind storms? Rising water? Warming Earth? Chilling Earth? Food and water shortages?

Tell me. Antichrist? LOL

 

[savagewind]

There is no one idiot enough to declare Earth's safety.

 

[2ndpillar]

Kudos for advertising the Bible but you're not helping anyone for Jesus. Don't be surprised if you hear him say to the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, "You never knew me!".

I think your version abbreviated the quote of Matthew 7:23. It apparently applies to all the followers of Paul (Romans 7:6), which would include all the daughters of Babylon.

New American Standard Bible Matthew 7:23
"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

 

[2ndpillar]

I actually know some Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jehovah will keep them safe from Earth's natural events. What "World leader" can promise that? What "World leader" can promise safety from nuclear reactions? What "World leader" can promise safety from insurrection? What "World leader" can promise safety from accident and sickness? Earthquakes.....wind storms? Rising water? Warming Earth? Chilling Earth? Food and water shortages?

Tell me. Antichrist? LOL

I think that one "Antichrist", Paul, has guaranteed protection from death in the "day of the LORD", promising "we" would be changed from perishable to imperishable in a twinkling of an eye. Of course that is a lie per Jeremiah 31:30, which makes his followers duped. Of course Yeshua, in Matthew 13:30, made it plain that the "tares" would be the first ones "gathered up", bundled and burned.

New American Standard Bible Matthew 13:30
'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

New American Standard Bible Jeremiah 31:30
"But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.

 

[2ndpillar]

IMO, Organizations that never seem to "Get the truth" will always "Get a change". Unlike truth, its highly salable.

Aren't the organizations who never "get the truth", better described as relying on "hope and change", and not on "get a change"? Just asking. As for "salable" truth, have you ever been in a Catholic church when they pass the contribution plate. The Protestants eat their sheep also, but not having visited all approximately 38,000 different sects, I am not sure about the procedures. (Ezekiel 34:1-3).

New American Standard Bible Ezekiel 34:3
"You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock.

 

[savagewind]

@2ndpillar are you aware that most people believe that 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is a prophecy about secular leaders?

 

[sooda]

@2ndpillar are you aware that most people believe that 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is a prophecy about secular leaders?

Or this?

1 Thessalonians 5:3 ►. The word destruction is familiar to us.

It means, properly, demolition; pulling down; the annihilation of the form of anything, or that form of parts which constitutes it what it is; as the destruction of grass by eating; of a forest by cutting down the trees; of life by murder; of the soul by consigning it to misery.

 

[sooda]

I think your version abbreviated the quote of Matthew 7:23. It apparently applies to all the followers of Paul (Romans 7:6), which would include all the daughters of Babylon.

New American Standard Bible Matthew 7:23
"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

The daughter of Babylon is Israel not Rome.


Romans 7:6

“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”