Perfect Eden?

[fantome profane]

I am just wondering where the idea of a perfect Eden comes from. I hear this idea come up in verious context of life in Eden being perfect paradise, that is completely without suffering, pain, or death.

When I read Genesis where it talks about the Garden of Eden it says it is good. It says there is plenty of food, there are some rivers, and it all sounds very pleasant. But I don't see where it says it is perfect.

It says that Adam was there to dress and keep it. And he even needed help to do it. So Adam had a job. I am sure it was nice work, but there is nothing to say that he never stubbed his toe or scrapped his arm. And nothing to say that nothing ever died in the garden.

I do want to hear any and all answers, but I will make a distinction as to where they come from. Does it come from Genesis? Or anywhere in the Pentateuch? Does it come from the Old Testament? Does it come from the New Testament? Does it come for other Christian leaders or philosophers?

 

[outhouse]

Its hard to say.

We have many legends compiled and edited over hundreds of years to get to the finished product we have today.

I think your best bet is to read some of the apocrypha, that has other legends in circulation.

You know the legend of Lilith and all. Since it wasnt canonized it may not have gone through as much redaction. Im guessing there.

 

[sojourner]

The theological implication is that it was the fall that brought imperfection into the picture.

 

[Pegg]

I am just wondering where the idea of a perfect Eden comes from. I hear this idea come up in verious context of life in Eden being perfect paradise, that is completely without suffering, pain, or death.

When I read Genesis where it talks about the Garden of Eden it says it is good. It says there is plenty of food, there are some rivers, and it all sounds very pleasant. But I don't see where it says it is perfect.

It says that Adam was there to dress and keep it. And he even needed help to do it. So Adam had a job. I am sure it was nice work, but there is nothing to say that he never stubbed his toe or scrapped his arm. And nothing to say that nothing ever died in the garden.

I do want to hear any and all answers, but I will make a distinction as to where they come from. Does it come from Genesis? Or anywhere in the Pentateuch? Does it come from the Old Testament? Does it come from the New Testament? Does it come for other Christian leaders or philosophers?

The idea of 'perfect' needs to be understood before you can determine what 'perfect' meant in the Garden of Eden. Its a common error to think that everything called “perfect” is so in an absolute sense without limitation.

The Hebrew scriptures say that all Gods 'ways' are perfect. Moses said of God: “For I shall declare the name of Jehovah. Do you attribute greatness to our God! The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; righteous and upright is he.” (Pentateuch - Deuteronomy 32:3, 4)

Everything besides God should be considered to be 'relative' in terms of its perfection. If God is the absolute standard of perfection, then everything else is relative to him. What this means is that everything else is only perfect in relation to the purpose, or end for which it is appointed by God, or the way it is put to use by its receiver or user.
Here is an example to illustrate: A sharp knife is perfect for cutting our vegetables, but if the user tries to use it to chop down a tree, it is now imperfect for such a use because it wont work well. So the knife is no longer the perfect tool because it has been taken out of its proper context....and this is what 'relativity' means. Its only perfect in relation to how its being used. Can a perfect knife go blunt? Yes. Does that mean the knife is not perfect? No. The reason is because things can go wrong with relative perfection...the knife can go blunt in this case.... but the knife is still perfect for cutting, it just needs to be maintained. Could the man have got a splinter in the perfect Garden, yes, could he have stubbed his toe? Yes....Just as i can cut my finger on the knife - but it doesnt mean the garden or the knife are imperfect.

And this is how we can understand what Eden was and what it was not. God created Eden to be a perfect home for the man and woman. It had Gods approval and he pronounced the results of his work as “very good” (Ge 1:31) good being a supreme standard of excellence or perfection. So the garden was perfect...but the man did not maintain his role as cultivator so he was expelled and the garden ceased to be accessible to him. It doesnt make the garden of Eden imperfect for the reason that it was designed to be a 'home' for the man and woman, and as a home, it was perfect for them. It contained everything they needed, it was comfortable, appealing to the eye, it provided food and water.... as a home it was perfect for them because that was the purpose for which God had made it.

 

[fantome profane]

The theological implication is that it was the fall that brought imperfection into the picture.

But my question is where does this theological implication come from?

I don't see the word "fall" being used in this way in Genesis.

 

[fantome profane]

The idea of 'perfect' needs to be understood before you can determine what 'perfect' meant in the Garden of Eden. Its a common error to think that everything called “perfect” is so in an absolute sense without limitation.

The Hebrew scriptures say that all Gods 'ways' are perfect. Moses said of God: “For I shall declare the name of Jehovah. Do you attribute greatness to our God! The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; righteous and upright is he.” (Pentateuch - Deuteronomy 32:3, 4)

Everything besides God should be considered to be 'relative' in terms of its perfection. If God is the absolute standard of perfection, then everything else is relative to him. What this means is that everything else is only perfect in relation to the purpose, or end for which it is appointed by God, or the way it is put to use by its receiver or user.
Here is an example to illustrate: A sharp knife is perfect for cutting our vegetables, but if the user tries to use it to chop down a tree, it is now imperfect for such a use because it wont work well. So the knife is no longer the perfect tool because it has been taken out of its proper context....and this is what 'relativity' means. Its only perfect in relation to how its being used. Can a perfect knife go blunt? Yes. Does that mean the knife is not perfect? No. The reason is because things can go wrong with relative perfection...the knife can go blunt in this case.... but the knife is still perfect for cutting, it just needs to be maintained. Could the man have got a splinter in the perfect Garden, yes, could he have stubbed his toe? Yes....Just as i can cut my finger on the knife - but it doesnt mean the garden or the knife are imperfect.

And this is how we can understand what Eden was and what it was not. God created Eden to be a perfect home for the man and woman. It had Gods approval and he pronounced the results of his work as “very good” (Ge 1:31) good being a supreme standard of excellence or perfection. So the garden was perfect...but the man did not maintain his role as cultivator so he was expelled and the garden ceased to be accessible to him. It doesnt make the garden of Eden imperfect for the reason that it was designed to be a 'home' for the man and woman, and as a home, it was perfect for them. It contained everything they needed, it was comfortable, appealing to the eye, it provided food and water.... as a home it was perfect for them because that was the purpose for which God had made it.

Good thoughtful response.

Would it be fair to say then that even death could be part of this perfection, in the right time, the right place and in the right balance?

 

[Pegg]

Good thoughtful response.

Would it be fair to say then that even death could be part of this perfection, in the right time, the right place and in the right balance?

yes sure,

and as you said, there is nothing to say that death was not experienced in the garden of Eden. In fact, it must have been a part of it because Adam and Eve knew that death would be the result of disobedience. So they knew about death.

I would say though, that it was death among the animals which was known to them. They obviously had not experienced death if they were the only two humans alive. So death would have been normal for other species, but not for them which is why death was spoken of as a punishment for disobedience rather then a normal part of their everyday life. But if the animals were created to live and die, and thats what they were doing, then they were perfect because they were doing exactly what they were designed to do.